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Message
Religious fanaticism, Islam and the IRA
Posted on 12/19/14 at 12:55 am
Posted on 12/19/14 at 12:55 am
Ok Im not much of a political guru nor do I enjoy talking about these topics in general but I had a recent discussion that deeply bothered me and wanted to get everyone's thoughts.
I was having dinner with another fellow American and two Brits yesterday and the topic of "Is Islam a peaceful or troublesome religion" came up. I pointed out that there is no denying that there are crazies in every religion but the difference with Islam is that a large portion of its followers are either supportive or completely ambivalent when it comes to violence against civilians in the name of their religion.
The two Brits immediately objected and pointed to the bombings and attacks carried out by the IRA in their struggle against the British government and mostly Protestant ruling class over the last century. In their words "we had a bunch of Catholics bombing Protestants.... and Catholics in the US supported them".
Now my recollection of that struggle was that it was primarily a separatist movement where Irish Catholics had been repressed, persecuted and basically shite on by the Brits and Irish Protestants and their fight was to form their own Ireland where they could govern on a level playing field. I obviously wasn't condoning the activities of the IRA but to excuse the actions of radical Muslims by drawing similarities between the two strikes me as horribly disingenuous.
I can say as a person who was raised Catholic but primarily as a Christian in general it was an insulting argument.
What say ye?
I was having dinner with another fellow American and two Brits yesterday and the topic of "Is Islam a peaceful or troublesome religion" came up. I pointed out that there is no denying that there are crazies in every religion but the difference with Islam is that a large portion of its followers are either supportive or completely ambivalent when it comes to violence against civilians in the name of their religion.
The two Brits immediately objected and pointed to the bombings and attacks carried out by the IRA in their struggle against the British government and mostly Protestant ruling class over the last century. In their words "we had a bunch of Catholics bombing Protestants.... and Catholics in the US supported them".
Now my recollection of that struggle was that it was primarily a separatist movement where Irish Catholics had been repressed, persecuted and basically shite on by the Brits and Irish Protestants and their fight was to form their own Ireland where they could govern on a level playing field. I obviously wasn't condoning the activities of the IRA but to excuse the actions of radical Muslims by drawing similarities between the two strikes me as horribly disingenuous.
I can say as a person who was raised Catholic but primarily as a Christian in general it was an insulting argument.
What say ye?
12
Posted on 12/19/14 at 2:35 am to lsugradman
Paging TNBhoy to defend the IRA.
frick the IRA
But seriously you see more open support for the IRA in Scotland and N. Ireland than in Ireland.
Alot of the hate in Scotland was carried over when both religious groups move over from Ireland. In all honesty its pathetic both groups can't get over it. Sectarian violence still happens but with the younger generation it seems to be dying out.
You also still have the Catholic soccer team and fans in Glasgow openly still not getting with the times and protest the military who keeps them safe at night.
A lot of people get pissed off in England bc its a touchy subject, that England was getting bombed during all of these issues.
frick the IRA
But seriously you see more open support for the IRA in Scotland and N. Ireland than in Ireland.
Alot of the hate in Scotland was carried over when both religious groups move over from Ireland. In all honesty its pathetic both groups can't get over it. Sectarian violence still happens but with the younger generation it seems to be dying out.
You also still have the Catholic soccer team and fans in Glasgow openly still not getting with the times and protest the military who keeps them safe at night.
A lot of people get pissed off in England bc its a touchy subject, that England was getting bombed during all of these issues.
This post was edited on 12/19/14 at 3:30 am
Posted on 12/19/14 at 3:28 am to lsugradman
The Irish who came to America were fleeing economic oppression by the Brits more than religious oppression. Many leaders of the turn of the century Home Rule movement were Protestant. Parnell, Childers, and Gray were very much Church of Irelanders. WB Yeats and other nationalists of the Celtic literary revival seemed to be more occultist than Protestant but Yeats at least, truly despised Catholicism.
It really didn't become Prod v RC until at least mid-20th century, long after the partition.
Two of my great, great uncles were hanged near Galway in 1909, so I've always been fascinated with that time period. But the family lore is not entirely clear as to whether they were nationalists or just criminals.
It really didn't become Prod v RC until at least mid-20th century, long after the partition.
Two of my great, great uncles were hanged near Galway in 1909, so I've always been fascinated with that time period. But the family lore is not entirely clear as to whether they were nationalists or just criminals.
This post was edited on 12/19/14 at 3:31 am
Posted on 12/19/14 at 5:54 am to lsugradman
IRA was more political than religious.
There just isn't that much difference between the Catholic v. Anglican Church.
There just isn't that much difference between the Catholic v. Anglican Church.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 5:57 am to TrueTiger
quote:
There just isn't that much difference between the Catholic v. Anglican Church.
They both just peddle a little different flavor of bullshite. Splitting hairs.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 6:37 am to lsugradman
I don't think Muslims are really comparable to the IRA. As others have pointed out the IRAs activities were mostly politically motivated. They weren't blowing things up and killing people so they could spread their religious ideology and they certainly weren't trying to convert Protestants to Catholicism. As far as I know they also didn't carry out any operations outside of the United Kingdom.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 6:44 am to StraightCashHomey21
The IRA supported Irish independence. They fought the British during the Irish Civil War during the Easter Uprising. The UVF or Ulster Volunteer Force fought for the Protestant Loyalist interests in ancient province of Ulster (or modern Northern Ireland).
Most of the UK, especially England, less so in Scotland, can't stand the IRA.
Soccer matches are the worst for sectarian strife though both sides push each other. Some rough and tumble Irish soccer matches play Irish "Rebel Music" directly taunting those who didn't support the IRA. To get a feel for this, look up the history of the song "Come Out You Black and Tans".
I guess my point is that for the most part the IRA is getting caught in the whole PC movement in Ireland and no one really brings it up unless they are causing trouble.
Most of the UK, especially England, less so in Scotland, can't stand the IRA.
Soccer matches are the worst for sectarian strife though both sides push each other. Some rough and tumble Irish soccer matches play Irish "Rebel Music" directly taunting those who didn't support the IRA. To get a feel for this, look up the history of the song "Come Out You Black and Tans".
I guess my point is that for the most part the IRA is getting caught in the whole PC movement in Ireland and no one really brings it up unless they are causing trouble.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 7:02 am to lsugradman
quote:
I obviously wasn't condoning the activities of the IRA but to excuse the actions of radical Muslims by drawing similarities between the two strikes me as horribly disingenuous.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 7:31 am to Iosh
Posted on 12/19/14 at 7:40 am to StraightCashHomey21
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:05 am to lsugradman
quote:
I can say as a person who was raised Catholic but primarily as a Christian in general it was an insulting argument.
It is an insulting argument. The IRA are not terrorists because their religion compels them to be. They are terrorists because they are fighting, like the PLO, for a country of their own. They have been repressed by the English (predominately protestant) for centuries. The PLO is similar. The key difference is how the rest of their respective religions respond to each organization. While a small subset of Catholics either turn a blind eye to the IRA or tepidly support them, the PLO and Hamas are widely supported among Muslims. Your average Catholic in Spain pays the IRA no mind, but your average Muslim in Iran supports Hamas and the PLO.
If anything, I think a more accurate Muslim counterpart to the IRA would be the Kurds who have been historically repressed by Turks, Persians, and Arabs, and are now at war with ISIS. However, many Kurdish factions are in fact terrorist groups and have communist ties.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:26 am to coolpapaboze
quote:
I don't think Muslims are really comparable to the IRA. As others have pointed out the IRAs activities were mostly politically motivated. They weren't blowing things up and killing people so they could spread their religious ideology and they certainly weren't trying to convert Protestants to Catholicism. As far as I know they also didn't carry out any operations outside of the United Kingdom.
It's closer to Afghani Taliban or the PLO, but those organizations were still more ideologically driven than the IRA.
OP you were getting half the story from those Brits. You don't have to condone the IRA's actions to recognize that the British oppressed the Irish.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:34 am to lsugradman
quote:
What say ye?
Remember Ian Paisley.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:43 am to Pettifogger
quote:
You don't have to condone the IRA's actions to recognize that the British oppressed the Irish.
Still no need for the IRA to conduct terrorist attacks.
The Irish won their independence back in the day 6 counties said no thanks. IRA wants one Ireland and kills innocent people from both religious sides.
Of course troops get sent to N Ireland. IED's. sniper attacks on UK forces. UK forces killing the innocent as well. It was a cluster frick.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:49 am to lsugradman
quote:
I can say as a person who was raised Catholic but primarily as a Christian in general it was an insulting argument.
What say ye?
I'm not a Catholic, but in Northern Ireland, religion was a proxy for class and ethnicity, with the Celtic, poor Irish being predominantly Catholic and the, relatively, wealthier Anglo-Saxons being predominantly Protestant.
Similar to what went on after the collapse of Yugoslavia. Virtually all the Albanians (and Bosniaks) are Muslim. Virtually all the Serbs are Orthodox. Virtually all the Croats are Catholic. It is easy to see the religious lines (and they target each other's religious institutions) - but the Albanian Christian sites weren't touched, by the predominantly muslim Albanian forces. And the Catholic Croats and Muslim Bosniaks teamed up againt the Orthodox Serbs because they hated Serbs more than they hated each other - despite the Croats and Serbs being, ostensibly, Christian.
This post was edited on 12/19/14 at 8:51 am
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:51 am to lsugradman
quote:
What say ye?
If they were comparing the IRA to the Palestinian terrorist groups, I would say that they were spot on, since neither group had international ambitions, only local ones, nor are they bent on converting every one to their religion.
However, if they were comparing the IRA to like ISIS and Al Qaeda, groups with broad regional and international ambitions, and who want to force their religion on others at the barrel of a gun, I would say they made a bad analogy.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:51 am to lsugradman
quote:
Ok Im not much of a political guru nor do I enjoy talking about these topics in general but I had a recent discussion that deeply bothered me and wanted to get everyone's thoughts. I was having dinner with another fellow American and two Brits yesterday and the topic of "Is Islam a peaceful or troublesome religion" came up. I pointed out that there is no denying that there are crazies in every religion but the difference with Islam is that a large portion of its followers are either supportive or completely ambivalent when it comes to violence against civilians in the name of their religion. The two Brits immediately objected and pointed to the bombings and attacks carried out by the IRA in their struggle against the British government and mostly Protestant ruling class over the last century. In their words "we had a bunch of Catholics bombing Protestants.... and Catholics in the US supported them". Now my recollection of that struggle was that it was primarily a separatist movement where Irish Catholics had been repressed, persecuted and basically shite on by the Brits and Irish Protestants and their fight was to form their own Ireland where they could govern on a level playing field. I oviously wasn't condoning the activities of the IRA but to excuse the actions of radical Muslims by drawing similarities between the two strikes me as horribly disingenuous. bI can say as a person who was raised Catholic but primarily as a Christian in general it was an insulting argument. What say ye?
A spurious argument on their part, lg; but not uncommon for Islamist apologetics.
Muhammad's *Religion*/Political Ideology has at it's philosophical/practical basis...WORLD DOMINATION. It's spelled out real clear; and even the *Moderate* Muslims can't challenge Muhammad's words and deeds. Such being unchallenged and violently coerced submission to Muhammad's version of Allah's will in the lives of all. There can be NO opposition; it's the same with Communism as both must be the only option. If Cultural diversity/opposition is allowed, then just like with their Marxists brethren, comparisons are drawn by smart folk...and Muhammad's imagined Utopia and 'peace' - Marx' social economic justice/happy family as well - are both found to be an ugly mirage.
The Brits are dupes and useful idiots re Islam. Burgeoning Muslim populations in their Country - and the inevitable Totalitarian calls for Islamic, Democratic freedoms which are their Religious rights in a Democratic society...will be the foolish Brit's undoing.
Islam and Freedom...are existentially incompatible. Islam can exist in a Free Society...but it's existence and purpose - as charged by their (Allah's) Prophet - is to DESTROY a Free society.
Arguing with fools seldom pays off, buddy. Other than to expose them to the truth...for future reference, when their world goes south. Or for their justified and extraordinary action in the last moments, before it goes all Islam.
Merry Christmas
Posted on 12/19/14 at 8:59 am to trackfan
quote:
If they were comparing the IRA to the Palestinian terrorist groups, I would say that they were spot on, since neither group had international ambitions, only local ones, nor are they bent on converting every one to their religion.
To the IRA's credit, the savagery was never as intentionally egregious as that of the Palestinian terror groups.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:01 am to TrueTiger
quote:
IRA was more political than religious.
There just isn't that much difference between the Catholic v. Anglican Church.
I'm not so sure about that, considering all the anti-Catholic laws that were imposed on Catholics by the British government, such as the Popery Act, and I don't blame them for fighting for the right to practice their religion. The folks who got murdered by the British government on Bloody Sunday were certainly the victims of anti-Catholic bigotry.
Posted on 12/19/14 at 9:04 am to Pettifogger
quote:
To the IRA's credit, the savagery was never as intentionally egregious as that of the Palestinian terror groups.
I'm not sure what you mean by that because dead is dead. Neither the IRA nor the Palestinians had qualms about killing civilians, and the British and Israelis neither for that matter.
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