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Started By
Message
re: Is healthcare coverage a right?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:23 pm to LSU alum wannabe
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:23 pm to LSU alum wannabe
quote:
Thats what makes 80/20 or 90/10 plans egregious. You are left responsible for 20% of a bill that's fricking pulled from an anus.
troof. But when you sign up to let the insurer negotiate the prices for you... you get what you get.
0
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:29 pm to germandawg
quote:God how sad it is that people buy into this crap.
Its not silly when kids die for want of basic healthcare and we have higher infant mortality rates than many nations which are much poorer then we are...
Let me give you a hint as to how to fix our infant mortality rate just as in all those wonderful countries you're referring to . . . like Cuba, or Germany, or China, or wherever.
Just report differently!
That's it.
Voila!
Problem fixed!
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:30 pm to TheXman
Nobody has a "right" to force someone else to do something for them at less than market cost
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:39 pm to gthog61
quote:
Nobody has a "right" to force someone else to do something for them at less than market cost
What's market cost? Somebody knows, but they ain't talking.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:46 pm to TheXman
n o
Posted on 3/7/17 at 9:03 pm to germandawg
quote:
Its not silly when kids die for want of basic healthcare and we have higher infant mortality rates than many nations
Again I ask, what is "basic healthcare"? Is it giving an infant a polio vaccination? Or is it a 6 month stay in the NICU for a baby born at 26 weeks?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 9:05 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Healthcare is no different than any other product or service
You're usually not this ignorant about the basics of health care.
Are you having a bad night?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 11:26 pm to BamaAtl
quote:Do you have an economic argument, or just bleeting aimlessly?
Are you having a bad night?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 11:44 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Do you have an economic argument, or just bleeting aimlessly?
Markets typically function best with minimal information asymmetry and the consumer not suffering from imperfect information when making decisions. I.E. you want highly informed people making smart, objectively rational choices.
That logic for instance is where the promise from proponents of High-Deductible Health Plans comes from. Who argue that making consumers have more skin in the game will incentivize them to make wiser healthcare decisions and thus will reduce costs and drive down healthcare prices. On the first point, they do reduce costs, but the overwhelming consensus has been that on the second, key point, what actually happens is cost savings are achieved by people consuming less essential and nonessential care. Making short-term decisions that are more costly long-term, not driving prices down and not producing consumer optimization like hoped : LINK
And this is deeper then just a lack of price transparency like some types of reformers argue. Because you are essentially asking consumers to be their own doctor. Something even actual doctors struggle to do when deciding on when to seek or not seek care: LINK
This is also just addressing routine care, emergency care is another beast entiriely. Since you aren't exactly in a state to just shop around for a bit.
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 11:54 pm
Posted on 3/8/17 at 1:10 am to bonhoeffer45
quote:There is a ton of research debunking that.
Making short-term decisions that are more costly long-term, not driving prices down and not producing consumer optimization like hoped
quote:None of that frees medicine from the bounds of economics. Because something is complex does not mean it's exempt from reality.
Because you are essentially asking consumers to be their own doctor. Something even actual doctors struggle to do when deciding on when to seek or not seek care
quote:Silly. Most people don't shop for tow truck divers when their car is broken. That doesn't mean tow trucks don't operate in a competitive economic environment.
This is also just addressing routine care, emergency care is another beast entiriely. Since you aren't exactly in a state to just shop around for a bit.
As for emergency services... when you introduce third-party payors that largely per-negotiate prices long before you ever turn up in the ED--there is plenty of shopping going on.
Posted on 3/8/17 at 1:23 am to ndtiger
quote:
I believe that people who truly cannot afford it should be helped. And that means no cell phones, no satellite tv, no cigs, no alcohol, no car note.....get my point. Those people lack priorities so frick them. They can die
so people who can't afford expensive healthcare must not be able to do anything but get medicine, work, then eventually die? I mean no car note...are you serious? So you're basically wanting to keep people on the govts teet longer. No car=no job for many people.
No cell phones? So no way for an employer to call for a job? More people remain in the system.
This line of thinking is asinine. You're actively putting more people on govt. Support by supporting this line of thinking.
Posted on 3/8/17 at 7:00 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
Is healthcare coverage a right?
quote:
Its not silly when kids die for want of basic healthcare and we have higher infant mortality rates than many nations which are much poorer then we are...
we've debunked that many times on here. But nice try at the heartstrings argument.
No doubt it has been debunked here....it is anywhere else in the world though that matters and it has not been debunked there. We are still working out debunking Pizzagate here my friend....
Posted on 3/8/17 at 7:19 am to Taxing Authority
quote:
Do you have an economic argument
Health care isn't a free market, there's no elasticity of demand. If I need x product/procedure/treatment to live, and otherwise I die, human psychology is wired to pay whatever price is asked.
Treating health care like it's shopping for credit card rates or a new car is absurd and underscores a severe lack of comprehension of the human dimension of the issue.
Posted on 3/8/17 at 7:33 am to BamaAtl
quote:
If I need x product/procedure/treatment to live, and otherwise I die, human psychology is wired to pay whatever price is asked.
Not every medical issue equates to "otherwise I die." A large majority don't.
Posted on 3/8/17 at 7:41 am to TheXman
quote:
Is healthcare coverage a right?
To the degree that personal, healthcare choices are a responsibility...to that degree collective healthcare access would be a (moral) right. For ignorant or selfish individuals to act irresponsibly and assume a moral right for someone else to pay for that irresponsibility, would be immoral.
And the subsidization of immorality probably wouldn't pass the Mother Nature/survival of the fit test anyway. For very long.
Posted on 3/8/17 at 7:44 am to BamaAtl
quote:
If I need x product/procedure/treatment to live, and otherwise I die, human psychology is wired to pay whatever price is asked.
With more "price" and outcome transparency we can get closer to elasticity though.
The last time I looked, the hospital with the best outcomes for a heart procedure I looked at was the 2nd lowest cost. The most expensive hospital (the brand name) was like 4th or 5th best in outcomes.
The public needs more data and be expected to take responsibility for themselves.
You still stand by that disease isn't about personal choice or did you walk that statement back yet?
Posted on 3/8/17 at 9:47 am to BamaAtl
quote:repeating it doesn't make it so.
Health care isn't a free market
quote:
there's no elasticity of demand.
than why do insurance companies and providers negotiate pricing every year? quote:
If I need x product/procedure/treatment to live, and otherwise I die
quote:So why doesn't a cardiac surgeon charge $1,000,000,000,000 for a surgery?
human psychology is wired to pay whatever price is asked.
quote:Because something is different doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Treating health care like it's picking out a puppy at the shelter is similarity absurd.
Treating health care like it's shopping for credit card rates
quote:Not at all.
underscores a severe lack of comprehension of the human dimension of the issue
Humans are the core of medical care providers. Every one of those people have a strong economic need to be paid and rewarded for their work.
If anyone is ignoring the "human dimension" it's those mooching off the system--and those that would enable more of it.
Those that are forced to pay for another's "free" services are directly harmed by having to pay for it. They could have instead sent their children to better schools. They could expand their businesses. They could provide for their families better and more efficiently than the government is capable of.
Yet somehow... the real and tangible economic (and human) costs to those providing funding for "free" care continually ignored by enablers.
Anything looks good when you neglect to factor in half of the equation.
This post was edited on 3/8/17 at 9:50 am
Posted on 3/8/17 at 9:48 am to TheXman
quote:
Is healthcare coverage a right?
frick no.
Posted on 3/8/17 at 12:32 pm to ndtiger
quote:
I believe that people who truly cannot afford it should be helped. And that means no cell phones, no satellite tv, no cigs, no alcohol, no car note.....get my point.
I went to contest a speeding ticket once. The guy in front of me told the judge he could not afford to pay the ticket as he did not have a job. The judge said do you have a cell phone? I can give you the number of a guy hiring. The guy took out his iPhone and the judge said if you have money to pay for an iPhone you have money to pay your ticket. You are under arrest. Needless to say, I didn't contest the ticket after that.
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