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re: Is healthcare coverage a right?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:41 pm to bonhoeffer45
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:41 pm to bonhoeffer45
Just out of curiosity, why is it so bad in eastern canada?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:41 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Healthcare is no different than any other product or service. If you use more--you should pay more. I will never understand why people consider that unfair.
No other service is less transparent in its pricing
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:44 pm to LSU12223
quote:Right. People wrap up all kinds of hypothetical emotion and fear but almost none of it is realistic.
Because people have no sense of money. And how economics works
If you have inoperable stage 4 pancreatic cancer--you don't need insurance at all. You're going to die. It's just a question of how much of a drain on others you're going to be.
But you can bet our system will spend millions in uncompensated care for them. All while leftists tell us how inadequate, cruel, and excessively expensive our "system" is.
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 7:51 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:44 pm to LSU alum wannabe
quote:Because the vast majority of Americns pay others to pay the prices.
No other service is less transparent in its pricing
The more middlemen there are, the less importance pricing is.
It's why it's fricking dumb to have comprehensive insurance in the first place.
If there are advanced humanioids on other planets out there in the cosmos, they probably only have insurance for catastrophic things.
You don't have insurance when your kid scratches your baseboards with his toy train or your dog digs up the backyard. You have insurance when your house succumbs to an eathquake or a fire
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:45 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:Thanks for proving my points out the irrationality.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:46 pm to BamaAtl
quote:Actually liberals have been bitching about meanie head insurance companies not paying for hopeless cases for decades.
It's almost as if we tried to fix this in 2009 but you ignorant fricks started lies about death panels
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:47 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
I have a few problems with that chart.
1) Americans many times CHOOSE to spend insane amounts on end of life care, an option not always available in European nations, perhaps for good reason I may add.
2) It assumes that a dollar in health care tax dollars would supply the same amount of care in those countries as in america. What if there is some other factor in America that would require MORE healthcare dollars than what a swede pays?
Thorpe, a health economist not against single payer, has estimated:
I think the flaw I am seeing is that you are framing it as single-payer vs the present day American system.
Every country has built its UHC to its unique situation. True most follow the broad outline of 3 or 4 types of systems, but within each there is a lot of variance.
Sanders plan is poor for a number of factors, biggest of all it is enormously disruptive and would require MASSIVE up front costs to transition to because it ignores that every other country didn't radically tear down their existing structure to get to their UHC system. And all did it before their systems swallowed 18% of GDP spending.
To your points:
1.)In other countries people do as well. Supplemental insurance is a resource of the wealthy in UHC countries. Even so, we still spend the second most in public dollars per capita.
2.) This seems to be a price question. We pay a lot for the same sort of care compared to other countries. Thats partly why the cost numbers are so high.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:48 pm to BamaAtl
quote:
lies about death panels
Or lies about mass extinction in the streets?
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:48 pm to TheXman
No.
And a bonus no, neither is education.
And a bonus no, neither is education.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:50 pm to LSU alum wannabe
quote:Yes, and no. The mistake most patients make is thinking they are the customer. They aren't. Their insurance company is the customer.
No other service is less transparent in its pricing
And providers and insurance companies almost always have pre-negotiated rates for services.
None of that is shown on the patient's EOB. But those are just bullshart to leave patients with the feeling of OMG I'm glad I have insurance or that toenail clipping would have been $50,000. Instead it was only $75.
This post was edited on 3/7/17 at 7:53 pm
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:53 pm to bonhoeffer45
quote:This point can be used as a weapon by either side of the political spectrum, imo.
Even so, we still spend the second most in public dollars per capita.
It's not an issue of American free market vs European single payer. America already has almost a third of its people on a government plan, and it pays third most per capita on GOVERNMENT spending.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:55 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
That leads to a whole other problem entitlement programs over half of our debt is to American people from entitlement programs guess what percentage of the debt is to China... less than 5%
Posted on 3/7/17 at 7:57 pm to TheXman
quote:
Isn't that what this whole argument between left and right boils down to?
I've heard arguments from both sides but I don't believe anyone from either side will ever be moved by the other.
Categorically not. In the wealthiest nation on earth though it can be much more affordable than it is....
Our society and our species is a nurturing one...we can no more deny this about ourselves than we can wean ourselves from oxygen. We expect providers to treat the poor...and they expect it of themselves as members of our society....and providers and paying customers alike do not mind passing the cost along to those of us who do pay...that is why we don't throw people in jail for intentionally getting medical attention when they have no intention of paying for it....
What we also have allowed is for providers to have a lock on who can and can't "provide" and what they can and can't provide....and we, for some reason, feel like we need an insurance company between us and our providers for basic health care....it is unlike any other business in the world...if someone else was paying your grocery bill because you sent them a check every month there is not telling what a pound of ground beef would eventually cost.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:02 pm to germandawg
quote:Its always amusing when people cite "the wealthiest nation on earth" as justification for lowest prices on earth. The exact opposite is true.
In the wealthiest nation on earth though it can be much more affordable than it is....
Prices are always going to reflect ability to pay (have a look at college educationpricing correlations subsidies sometime). It only makes sense that "the wealthiest nation on earth" is going to have high prices for something as in-demand as healthcare.
It's why comparisons with poorer nations are silly prima facie.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:02 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:09 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
It's why comparisons with poorer nations are silly prima facie.
Its not silly when kids die for want of basic healthcare and we have higher infant mortality rates than many nations which are much poorer then we are....infant mortality isn't amusing to most folks...
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:16 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
This point can be used as a weapon by either side of the political spectrum, imo.
It's not an issue of American free market vs European single payer. America already has almost a third of its people on a government plan, and it pays third most per capita on GOVERNMENT spending.
Very true.
I would go even further, we actually, unique to America, balance roughly 5 different models of healthcare simultaneously.
The VA = Beveridge model
Medicare/Medicaid = National Health Insurance Model
Employer market = A weak and poorly established Bismark Model.
Obamacare = A variation on the Bismarck that loosely resembles Switzerland's system.
Uninsured: out-of-pocket model. What poor and many non-industrialized countries have.
This complexity certainly adds to the cost of our system. In fact some of the negative effects of the employer tax credits creates a rare bi-partisan agreement amongst most economists. And the fractured and poorly regulated nature of our system(s) allows a lot of gaming from industries like pharmaceuticals. The argument I would make is that there is yet to be a success story of free market health care in the idealistic ways many conservatives talk about. So the evidence so far is not on their side in terms of what endpoint would be best in terms of cost, quality, coverage and sustainability.
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:21 pm to germandawg
quote:we've debunked that many times on here. But nice try at the heartstrings argument.
Its not silly when kids die for want of basic healthcare and we have higher infant mortality rates than many nations which are much poorer then we are...
Posted on 3/7/17 at 8:22 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
None of that is shown on the patient's EOB. But those are just bullshart to leave patients with the feeling of OMG I'm glad I have insurance or that toenail clipping would have been $50,000. Instead it was only $75.
Thats what makes 80/20 or 90/10 plans egregious. You are left responsible for 20% of a bill that's fricking pulled from an anus.
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