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Message
Does the Modern Left Confuse "Empahy" with "Excuses"?
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:09 am
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:09 am
the typical discussion goes in one of 2 directions:
i get accused of this often on here, and on facebook when i get into it occasionally. i get the same BS on the OT when i refuse to excuse (oh shite, catch phrase!)the behavior of a person who is in a bad position directly due to consistent bad decision making (often having nothing to do with politics).
"empathy" has become a new buzzword, and it's literally getting to the level of misuse as literally. empathy is "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another." it's about understanding an emotional state and knowing when another person is feeling that state. nothing more.
so, when a SGR says that a person who is poor (because he/she made bad choices to become poor) doesn't have a right to steal the money of people who made good decisions (and are more prosperous), the SGR is not failing to take an emotional inventory of the poor person. the SGR is just making a logical-rational statement based in facts.
the BGL claims the SGR lacks "empathy", because if the SGR could understand how that poor person feels, the SGR would want to help the poor person (via government redistribution, of course. individual charity is never an option). this is an emotional-irrational thought process.
that belief also has nothing to do with "empathy". the BGL wants the SMR to excuse the behavior of the person whose bad choices led to a bad result. the BGL believes that if another person is not in an optimal situation, you should feel bad for him/her. and if you feel bad for him/her. that's empathy, and that's OK (and the SGR engages in that thought process). however, the BGL takes it one step further and demands you agree that the state should take from the non-poor to excuse the actions that led to the poor person becoming poor. that is NOT empathy.
the SGR understands completely how bad poverty sucks. that's empathy. the SGR, however, uses this as an example and/or motivation to make the right decisions to do our best to avoid finding ourselves in that position. there is no better statement of empathy than that to me. we understand how bad it gets, why it sucks, and can put ourselves in the position of a poor person to understand. that's empathy.
ETA: as a non-political aside, the biggest mis-use, just for the record, is with trolls. people love to criticize trolls by saying they lack empathy. the opposite is true, however. they completely understand emotions, emotional reactions, who has them, and how to evoke them. that's the whole point of trolling.
quote:
(1) "big government leftist" (BGL) defends government wealth redistribution programs that rely upon stealing money from people to give to others. "small government rightist" (SGR) explains that this is not fair, it is actually immoral, and is negative to everyone. BGL claims that SGR only says this because the SGR lacks empathy
(2) SGR, when discussing poverty and the middle class, explains that personal responsibility and good decision-making is the main difference. BGL explains that this is a privileged view that destroys the empathy necessary to have this discussion, and the SGR really wants to maintain a system that has given the advantage to the SGR. if the SGR had empathy for the plight of the poor, the SGR would support wealth redistribution plans via government.
i get accused of this often on here, and on facebook when i get into it occasionally. i get the same BS on the OT when i refuse to excuse (oh shite, catch phrase!)the behavior of a person who is in a bad position directly due to consistent bad decision making (often having nothing to do with politics).
"empathy" has become a new buzzword, and it's literally getting to the level of misuse as literally. empathy is "the ability to understand and share the feelings of another." it's about understanding an emotional state and knowing when another person is feeling that state. nothing more.
so, when a SGR says that a person who is poor (because he/she made bad choices to become poor) doesn't have a right to steal the money of people who made good decisions (and are more prosperous), the SGR is not failing to take an emotional inventory of the poor person. the SGR is just making a logical-rational statement based in facts.
the BGL claims the SGR lacks "empathy", because if the SGR could understand how that poor person feels, the SGR would want to help the poor person (via government redistribution, of course. individual charity is never an option). this is an emotional-irrational thought process.
that belief also has nothing to do with "empathy". the BGL wants the SMR to excuse the behavior of the person whose bad choices led to a bad result. the BGL believes that if another person is not in an optimal situation, you should feel bad for him/her. and if you feel bad for him/her. that's empathy, and that's OK (and the SGR engages in that thought process). however, the BGL takes it one step further and demands you agree that the state should take from the non-poor to excuse the actions that led to the poor person becoming poor. that is NOT empathy.
the SGR understands completely how bad poverty sucks. that's empathy. the SGR, however, uses this as an example and/or motivation to make the right decisions to do our best to avoid finding ourselves in that position. there is no better statement of empathy than that to me. we understand how bad it gets, why it sucks, and can put ourselves in the position of a poor person to understand. that's empathy.
ETA: as a non-political aside, the biggest mis-use, just for the record, is with trolls. people love to criticize trolls by saying they lack empathy. the opposite is true, however. they completely understand emotions, emotional reactions, who has them, and how to evoke them. that's the whole point of trolling.
This post was edited on 10/4/14 at 9:13 pm
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:12 am to SlowFlowPro
Excuses are all they know and they have no empathy.
Your question is the direct result of this
Your question is the direct result of this
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:14 am to theunknownknight
quote:
Your question is the direct result of this
time is a circle
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:15 am to SlowFlowPro
when SGR's refer to social programs or taxes as "stealing" than you can't really have a rational discussion about these issues
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:17 am to Pilot Tiger
quote:
when SGR's refer to social programs or taxes as "stealing" than you can't really have a rational discussion about these issues
you're taking money from one person to give to another. in any other context, what is this?
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:22 am to Pilot Tiger
quote:
when SGR's refer to social programs or taxes as "stealing" than you can't really have a rational discussion about these issues
Oh, you could. But you would lose because it is theft.
From Prof Walter Williams:
"By the democratic principles we espouse, government cannot have a right that citizens do not grant it. There are certain things that a person has no right to do. A person has no right to murder or rape another. Therefore, people cannot grant government authority to murder and rape. Similarly, no person has the right to forcibly take the property of one person in order to give it to another. Therefore, people cannot grant government authority to do the same thing. If I forcibly took property from one person, for any reason, most people would condemn it as theft, an immoral act. Theft or any other immoral act does not become moral because it is done by government acting on behalf of a consensus or majority vote just as murder or rape does not become a moral act simply because of a consensus or majority vote."
Sharia Law makes murder legal in the cases of a woman committing adultery. Rape is also legal. In the U.S. we have legalized theft.
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:23 am to SlowFlowPro
You bring up some great points. Empathy is an extremely important attribute in humans; it allows us to understand and to relate to one another. Excusing behavior is something else all together, although empathy may precede it. I think some people excuse other's to either excuse their own behavior or are setting up an excuse for their future behavior.
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:26 am to buckeye_vol
i think people excuse behavior because they "feel bad" and think that "feeling bad" is empathy...but the problem with that is when you reduce a general concept to something so specific, and attempt to replace the bigger/general topic accordingly, you're left unfulfilled. so what happens? understanding x becomes feeling y which then becomes doing z
the SGR understands this, but also understands that other than giving a guide on what to do/not to do, the people should be left to themselves
the BFL believes that if a person ends up in a place where they feel y, then we must use the government to do z
in most instances z = take shite from those who made good decisions and benefited from that and give it to the people who didn't make good decisions and received detrimental results accordingly (leading to the aforementioned feels)
the SGR understands this, but also understands that other than giving a guide on what to do/not to do, the people should be left to themselves
the BFL believes that if a person ends up in a place where they feel y, then we must use the government to do z
in most instances z = take shite from those who made good decisions and benefited from that and give it to the people who didn't make good decisions and received detrimental results accordingly (leading to the aforementioned feels)
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:29 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
the BFL believes that if a person ends up in a place where they feel y, then we must use the government to do z
The element you're leaving out in terms of motivation on the part of BFL is that redistribution programs are not designed to help people out. They are designed to buy votes and keep the BFL in power. Do you actually think that Tom Harken cares about poor people?
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:31 am to Zach
well i think we're discussing 2 different groups
you're talking about politicians and real policy makers
i'm talking about individuals "trying to make a difference"
you're talking about politicians and real policy makers
i'm talking about individuals "trying to make a difference"
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:31 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
ETA: as a non-political aside, the biggest mis-use, just for the record, is with trolls. people love to criticize trolls by saying they lack empathy. the opposite is true, however. they completely understand emotions, emotional reactions, who has them, and how to evoke them. that's the whole point of trolling.
Good point but I do think there can be a slight distinction between empathy and just understanding what causes an emotional reaction but fail to relate that to their own perspective (i.e., Theory of Mind).
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:33 am to SlowFlowPro
The main thing this country needs to focus on going forward is PERSONAL RESPONSIBILTY. This is the agenda that needs to be promoted if we truly want our country and planet to progress and flourish. Service to others is next. But not state mandated. Leave the middle men out. No need for gov't bureaucracy to mandate it or dole it out. It's inefficient and seldom do the people that need it most get it. I choose to only help those that help themselves. Those that don't will have no lasting benefit from charity. If we truly are all in this together as the dipshit lib's wanna profess, we need to all pitch in. No free rides. Life doesn't work that way.
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:45 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
i think people excuse behavior because they "feel bad" and think that "feeling bad" is empathy
Well feeling bad probably is part of the empathy, but that's where empathy itself ends. Making causal assumptions, disregarding personal responsibility, and reinforcing poor decision-making are where the confusion seems to begin and a human strength (empathy) often transition into cognitive-biases (leading to the excuse making); although people think they are the same.
Posted on 10/4/14 at 10:54 am to SmackoverHawg
Great topic for discussion. My experience is that a BGL telling me (an SGR) that I lack empathy is about the best I can hope for. As an example, I was trying to point out to a GWL (guilty white liberal) that it serves no constructive purpose for them to pretend that it's still 1956 in order to grossly overstate the extent of racism in the present day. Their response? "I'm not guilty about being white. I'm proud to be white, because I don't have to worry about being lynched by people of your I'll."
Guilty white liberals. Can't live with 'em, can't hang 'em.
Guilty white liberals. Can't live with 'em, can't hang 'em.
Posted on 10/4/14 at 11:51 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:see my sig. This is you.
i refuse to excuse (oh shite, catch phrase!)the behavior of a person who is in a bad position directly due to consistent bad decision making
Posted on 10/4/14 at 12:09 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
(1) "big government leftist" (BGL) defends government wealth redistribution programs that rely upon stealing money from people to give to others. "small government rightist" (SMR) explains that this is not fair, it is actually immoral, and is negative to everyone. BGL claims that SMR only says this because the SGR lacks empathy
(2) SGR, when discussing poverty and the middle class, explains that personal responsibility and good decision-making is the main difference. BGL explains that this is a privileged view that destroys the empathy necessary to have this discussion, and the SGR really wants to maintain a system that has given the advantage to the SGR. if the SGR had empathy for the plight of the poor, the SGR would support wealth redistribution plans via government.
It's interesting to see that you can't get things straight even in your own nutty view of the world.
Posted on 10/4/14 at 5:50 pm to Tigah in the ATL
quote:
i refuse to excuse (oh shite, catch phrase!)the behavior of a person who is in a bad position directly due to consistent bad decision making
is not related to:
quote:
Fundamental attribution error: people's tendency to place undue emphasis on internal characteristics to explain someone else's behavior in a given situation, rather than considering external factors.
i'm only speaking of negative behavior and the correlating negative results of that behavior. "internal" has nothing to do with it
Posted on 10/4/14 at 5:51 pm to mmcgrath
quote:
It's interesting to see that you can't get things straight
i made 2 typos?
quote:
nutty view of the world.
which is what, exactly?
This post was edited on 10/4/14 at 5:53 pm
Posted on 10/4/14 at 7:21 pm to SlowFlowPro
Empathy is the autopilot needed by the mentally shallow.
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