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re: The Drew Brees critiques and criticisms
Posted on 10/20/14 at 3:33 pm to BlacknGold
Posted on 10/20/14 at 3:33 pm to BlacknGold
quote:
say we fix the o-line in the next year, will all the haters on Brees quietly change their tune when he gets back to form?
Hell, he had an interception rate of 1.8% last year and people are acting like he was putting the ball at risk. That was him being mediocre. The best interception % for a career is Aaron Rodgers at 1.7%
You give him a defense and he protects the ball
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 3:35 pm
1
Posted on 10/20/14 at 3:53 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
Atlanta was just a bad decision forcing it to Cooks over the top.
Bad decision #1
quote:
Cleveland was not on Brees. It was a blindside hit that he didn't see to a wide open receiver. He got hit right before his release, and it still went through Graham's hands.
Late on the throw is partly on Brees, but of course it's never his fault to some of you.
quote:
Colston was actually open vs. Detroit, Brees just had to hesitate and got the ball there a half second late. He shouldn't have thrown it, and Colston should have read the play better.
Again, purely on Brees. The play broke down and given the fact the Saints had a 6 point lead, the worst possible scenario was a stupid turnover there, which he forced.
Another game is Tampa. We are dominating them, and while Brees got pressured he threw two of the stupidest passes I've ever seen instead of taking the sack, which nearly cost them the game.
Brees has been a great QB through 2011, and I mean hall of fame great both in his stats and ability to make plays happen when needed. He puts up stats now and yet finds utterly bonehead ways to make mistakes. His road play has cost this team more than anything and I really don't care that he can put up video game numbers at home, when he plays horrid on the road.
Is the OL great? Not by any means, but Brees knows that and his bonehead plays aren't just inexcusable, they cost his team 3 games.
Drew is a great QB, but people acting like he can do no wrong and is never responsible for a loss are ridiculous. His great stats and performances over the years are why these types of bonehead plays are so damn hard to accept for a guy like him.
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 3:57 pm
Posted on 10/20/14 at 4:00 pm to TigerBait1127
I'm super late with this response, and I'm not trying to stir the pot again, but I can't believe anyone on this board can think that Brees isn't currently a top 5 QB of all time. He and CSP are largely credited to the shift of playing style that has come lately.
P.Manning, Elway, Montana, and Marino (in no particular order) come to mind when thinking of his company there.
If you disagree, please look at his extremely long list of NFL records he currently holds. Most notably, he holds 4 places in the top 6 total passing yards seasons. Also has 3 consecutive seasons with at least 5,000 passing yards. May be 4 pending this season.
I mean, it's simply erroneous to omit him from the discussion.
P.Manning, Elway, Montana, and Marino (in no particular order) come to mind when thinking of his company there.
If you disagree, please look at his extremely long list of NFL records he currently holds. Most notably, he holds 4 places in the top 6 total passing yards seasons. Also has 3 consecutive seasons with at least 5,000 passing yards. May be 4 pending this season.
I mean, it's simply erroneous to omit him from the discussion.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 4:03 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
Late on the throw is partly on Brees,
He wasn't late on the throw.
quote:
but of course it's never his fault to some of you.
How was that his fault? He had protection, he stepped up to deliver an accurate ball, and our oline blew it. It wasn't a late throw at all, it was a failure in protection.
Also, you remember just above this when I blamed Brees. Reading comprehension issues?
quote:
Again, purely on Brees.
Wait, so the Cleveland one was purely on Brees?
This one is on Brees, but it wasn't purely on Brees. Armstead got beat, he stepped up nicely but had to dip the ball. He shouldn't have thrown it, but there are still other factors in a TEAM game. If Armstead doesn't get beat so easily, its likely an easy first down.
quote:
Another game is Tampa. We are dominating them, and while Brees got pressured he threw two of the stupidest passes I've ever seen instead of taking the sack, which nearly cost them the game.
He played terrible that game. He was pretty damn incredible before it though
quote:quote:
Brees was a great QB in 2009 and 2011,
quote:
and I mean hall of fame great both in his stats and ability to make plays happen when needed.
And he's been mediocre every other year?
No, he's been great pretty much every year from 2006-Now. He had a 1.8 interception % last season. He had a 105 Passer Rating last season.
Insanity.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 4:04 pm to TigerBait1127
Here are some key stats for you since 2012.
Brees QB rating by half:
2012
1st half = 106.6
2nd half = 86.6
2013
1st half = 111.7
2nd half = 92.6
2014
1st half = 96.1
2nd half = 88.4
Last 2 minutes of half = 73.5
He gets significantly worse as the game roles on and teams adjust to the game plan.
Now, home vs road.
2012
home = 103.4
away = 90.1
2013
home = 126.3
away = 84.8 (Fricking 40+ point rating difference)
2014
home = 89.2 (He's even worse at home so far this year)
away = 93.0
Brees was a great QB and still can be, but he's not pulling his weight and his mistakes are killing this team and while people want to say how bad the OL play is, he is the one taking up a huge chunk of the salary cap, and while 2012 and 2013 were understandable, now its on him.
Brees QB rating by half:
2012
1st half = 106.6
2nd half = 86.6
2013
1st half = 111.7
2nd half = 92.6
2014
1st half = 96.1
2nd half = 88.4
Last 2 minutes of half = 73.5
He gets significantly worse as the game roles on and teams adjust to the game plan.
Now, home vs road.
2012
home = 103.4
away = 90.1
2013
home = 126.3
away = 84.8 (Fricking 40+ point rating difference)
2014
home = 89.2 (He's even worse at home so far this year)
away = 93.0
Brees was a great QB and still can be, but he's not pulling his weight and his mistakes are killing this team and while people want to say how bad the OL play is, he is the one taking up a huge chunk of the salary cap, and while 2012 and 2013 were understandable, now its on him.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 4:08 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
He had protection, he stepped up to deliver an accurate ball, and our oline blew it. It wasn't a late throw at all, it was a failure in protection.
You can't even keep your reasoning straight in the same sentence, yet you are supposed to know better than others. First you say he had protection, then that the OLine blew it. Which is it?
Posted on 10/20/14 at 4:12 pm to SirWinston
quote:This X 1 million.
So it's not like we're the fricking Washington Generals - we are 3 plays away from having the best record in football. Brees has to wear that - especially when he's eating up 1/7th of the entire franchise's salary cap.
And it's not just shitty line play (which we have had plenty of), but it's HIM trying to force the ball where it doesn't fit too OFTEN into too many tight windows. Yes, some of the time you will get lucky, but more often than not in the NFL that ball is a PICK- we have seen it over and over again. He's our franchise player but he takes too many chances with the ball- we were ahead when he threw those pics, they weren't hail mary's.
He needs to get better at this for $120 million a year.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 4:13 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
. First you say he had protection, then that the OLine blew it. Which is it?
Do you understand how block works?
You understand that there can be zero pressure, a guy breaks free, and then there is magically pressure
Let me break it down for you:
The defender broke completely free as Brees moved up in the pocket
Posted on 10/20/14 at 4:16 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
Do you understand how block works?
You understand that there can be zero pressure, a guy breaks free, and then there is magically pressure
Let me break it down for you:
The defender broke completely free as Brees moved up in the pocket
Then your statement makes no sense. If Brees had protection, then it wasn't an issue. If he took to long to make the read and throw while he had protection, that is something else. A collapsing pocket is not good protection.
You can't have it both ways and your statement is as ridiculous as you claim mine was.
Again, Brees is not playing well this season and has on his own put the Saints in horrible positions both late and early in games. Is it all on him? Of course not, but he carries a significant portion of the burden of responsibility for this horrible play.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 4:39 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
Then your statement makes no sense.
No, it makes perfect sense.
quote:
If Brees had protection, then it wasn't an issue.
Jesus. He had a pocket to step into, the protection looked great, and then he was popped as he delivered the ball.
quote:
If he took to long to make the read and throw while he had protection, that is something else.
He got rid of the ball in well under 3 seconds. He has to wait for Graham to pass the LB.
quote:
A collapsing pocket is not good protection.
It really isn't hard to understand. The protection looked good, and then the guy just blew through for an unblocked hit on Brees right when he got rid of it. All in under 3 seconds. Football is fast
quote:
You can't have it both ways and your statement is as ridiculous as you claim mine was.
quote:
Again, Brees is not playing well this season and has on his own put the Saints in horrible positions both late and early in games. Is it all on him? Of course not, but he carries a significant portion of the burden of responsibility for this horrible play.
Was he playing well before Tampa?
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 4:40 pm
Posted on 10/20/14 at 4:48 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
Then your statement makes no sense. If Brees had protection, then it wasn't an issue. If he took to long to make the read and throw while he had protection, that is something else. A collapsing pocket is not good protection.
Lets look at it with pictures.
Good Protection. Graham hasn't made his break yet.
You see how he has that nice lane to step into. We call that good. We want that to stay for at least another 1.5 seconds. You see how the tackle has started to slip? That is going to give the defender a clean shot at Brees
Bad Procetion, as he goes to throw Graham open
You see how it turned from good protection to a look out whiff? The guy on top of Brees is a bad thing
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 4:51 pm
Posted on 10/20/14 at 5:05 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
Lets look at it with pictures.
Again, this is where Brees used to get the ball out even quicker. Now he's hesitant. It is not entirely his fault, but he didn't sense the pressure at all. I still feel he waited too long there.
Brees hasn't been great all season even before Tampa. I am sorry if some stats from a blowout loss aren't great. He was sub 91 in passer rating in 2 out of the 4 games before Tampa and the 3rd was a garbage time stat padding.
He's had one good game rating wise in my opinion and even that one was bolstered by the first 2 drives of the game.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 5:15 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
Again, this is where Brees used to get the ball out even quicker. Now he's hesitant.
We've been over this. He's getting rid of the ball faster than ever before and by a significant margin
quote:
. It is not entirely his fault, but he didn't sense the pressure at all.
Yes, he should have sensed that his blindside LT slipped on his arse. That isn't a pressure you sense or can step away from
quote:
Brees hasn't been great all season even before Tampa
So then Brees must not have ever been a great QB.
quote:
He was sub 91 in passer rating in 2 out of the 4 games before Tampa
And he had a 120 QB rating in the other game.
He has a 90.3 passer rating for his career on the road.
Now bring the pressure he faced into it, and it is even more impressive.
quote:
He's had one good game rating wise in my opinion and even that one was bolstered by the first 2 drives of the game.
The first 2 drives don't count now? Can't win with you, a 120 rating isn't a good enough
quote:
and the 3rd was a garbage time stat padding.
So it is stat padding when you cut it to a 2 possession game with 10 minutes to go?
Should have told the Saints that this week
Posted on 10/20/14 at 5:22 pm to TigerBait1127
quote:
The first 2 drives don't count now? Can't win with you, a 120 rating isn't a good enough
They were great drives and all the praise to Brees for them, but he's dropped off in the second half every season since 2011 compared to the first half. While part of that is because he's played with leads at times, they've struggled a bunch.
quote:
And he had a 120 QB rating in the other game.
He has a 90.3 passer rating for his career on the road.
Now bring the pressure he faced into it, and it is even more impressive.
So we have 1 outlier game above and below his average on the year, so his average is basically accurate seeing as the other 4 games hover around it. His rating on the season is 91.7 and with his "outliers" removed is 93.0.
Again, Brees can put up all the stats he wants, they don't erase his huge mistakes when they cost the team the games. Take out the Cleveland one and his INT's against ATL, Detroit, Tampa Bay and Dallas are entirely on him for the most part.
This team is a playoff caliber team, but they simply aren't playing up to their potential for a full 60 minutes so far this season.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 5:43 pm to BlacknGold
I'd still respect him if he OJ'd his wife and Penn state'd the locker room.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 5:56 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
but he's dropped off in the second half every season since 2011 compared to the first half. While part of that is because he's played with leads at times, they've struggled a bunch.
We had 3 possessions in the 2nd half all over 5 minutes long, with the last one being 7. We're averaging around 20ppg victories at home in the last few years. Of course the 1st half numbers would be inflated.
You're also more likely to have to force a ball into coverage late in a game.
quote:
So we have 1 outlier game above and below his average on the year, so his average is basically accurate seeing as the other 4 games hover around it. His rating on the season is 91.7 and with his "outliers" removed is 93.0.
And you're taking away 1/2 the sample size giving you zero confidence
quote:
Again, Brees can put up all the stats he wants,
You keep saying this. Stats tend to help you win games. Hard to score points without scoring touchdowns
Check this one out:
Brees had 17 turnovers in 2009.
Brees had 14 turnovers in 2013.
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 5:59 pm
Posted on 10/20/14 at 6:53 pm to Geauxgurt
Good point - that ball should be closer to leaving Brees' hand in the picture. Graham is CLEARLY the first read on that play and he's already breaking open. Why is Brees taking so long?
Posted on 10/20/14 at 6:56 pm to TigerBait1127
TigerBait, you've made some really good points in this thread, but don't you agree that on the Cleveland pick 6 play:
A) Graham was the #1 read
B) Graham was breaking wide open in picture #1 (it's not like the Saints don't practice a TE post to JG and that Brees doesn't know that a LB in that spot is absolutely helpless… the ball needs to be OUT by picture #2)
C) Brees playing at his best would already be releasing the ball in picture #2. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind.
I would agree with the poster who said that Brees has been tentative much of the year. Even back into last season. I don't think he's been "in the zone" like he was through much of 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and parts of 2013. The other thing is that if Brees IS anticipating and is sharp and DOES hit Graham 2 ticks sooner that it might actually split the LB/Safety and go for an extra 20 yards. Even if the pass had been perfect as it played out, JG was going to be tackled immediately. A good, timely pass would have "thrown Graham open" and turned it into a basher for 50 yards if not a TD.
A) Graham was the #1 read
B) Graham was breaking wide open in picture #1 (it's not like the Saints don't practice a TE post to JG and that Brees doesn't know that a LB in that spot is absolutely helpless… the ball needs to be OUT by picture #2)
C) Brees playing at his best would already be releasing the ball in picture #2. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind.
I would agree with the poster who said that Brees has been tentative much of the year. Even back into last season. I don't think he's been "in the zone" like he was through much of 2006, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, and parts of 2013. The other thing is that if Brees IS anticipating and is sharp and DOES hit Graham 2 ticks sooner that it might actually split the LB/Safety and go for an extra 20 yards. Even if the pass had been perfect as it played out, JG was going to be tackled immediately. A good, timely pass would have "thrown Graham open" and turned it into a basher for 50 yards if not a TD.
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 7:00 pm
Posted on 10/20/14 at 7:01 pm to SirWinston
quote:
A) Graham was the #1 read
No way that route was the #1 option on that play. I think the number one option was Colston to the outside. Pretty easy checkdown though with a cover 1 robber
quote:
B) Graham was breaking wide open in picture #2
When Brees was in the process of getting rid of the ball
quote:
C) Brees playing at his best would already be in his motion and about to release the ball, rendering the pressure irrelevant?
From the back angle, its pretty easy to see that the ball comes Graham's way right when he's beating the linebacker
Gotta hold a 4 man rush for more than that. It came out of his hands in 2.65-2.85 seconds with a basic 4 man rush
Ball is out
Any earlier, the linebacker has the angle. Wouldn't wanna throw a pick 6
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 7:09 pm
Posted on 10/20/14 at 7:13 pm to SirWinston
quote:
It's not after the fact. I pretty much said "Jesus, that might cost us the damn game" after every single one of the plays that I mentioned. This isn't some minor "hindsight is 20/20" schtick - this is your franchise QB killing you game after game with the defining bad moment of the game.
The Atlanta interception clearly cost us 3 points (at least)
The Browns interception clearly cost us 7 points (at least - we had a good drive going so it may have been a 10 or 14 point swing)
The Lions interception clearly cost us 7 points
We lost the Atlanta game by 3 points
We lost the Browns game by 2 points
We lost the Lions game by 1 point
So? You know how good players would be if you eliminated their worst play of a game without changing anything else? If Brees wouldnt have thrown that pick yesterday, he would have had one of his best games as a Saint. You sure have no problem taking the good.
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