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Message
Question for board conservatives/libertarians
Posted on 7/21/14 at 9:53 pm
Posted on 7/21/14 at 9:53 pm
Just finished reading "Liberalism" by Ludwig Von Mises (excellent), and came away with a thought that has been bugging me ever since. For those of you who seek to consistently hold to a free market view, I have a question to ask.
What is you policy regarding open borders between the US and Mexico? After years of being told (and believing) that stronger border patrol is in our best interest, Mises is convincing me that this is not in fact the case. Are we reducing productivity by forbidding people from freely coming to the US? Mises would certainly believe so, as it curtails the specialization of labor. Jobs that would flow to immigrants in a free market are retained by costlier workers here in the US.
Allowing free immigration may in fact be an answer to ending the monopolies of trade unions and special interests that keep wages above their true value. Beyond that, as low end labor and consumption would increase, demand for educated, English speaking laborers for jobs could conceivably increase as well. According to Mises, the only true "liberal" position is that of open borders.
The objection, then, seems to be when immigrants demand services that I, the taxpayer, must pay for (healthcare, housing, etc). The problem isn't one of government inaction in immigration, but instead of government intervention via the welfare state.
Any thoughts/opinions welcome. For those who have read and studied, please recommend articles/books to read.
What is you policy regarding open borders between the US and Mexico? After years of being told (and believing) that stronger border patrol is in our best interest, Mises is convincing me that this is not in fact the case. Are we reducing productivity by forbidding people from freely coming to the US? Mises would certainly believe so, as it curtails the specialization of labor. Jobs that would flow to immigrants in a free market are retained by costlier workers here in the US.
Allowing free immigration may in fact be an answer to ending the monopolies of trade unions and special interests that keep wages above their true value. Beyond that, as low end labor and consumption would increase, demand for educated, English speaking laborers for jobs could conceivably increase as well. According to Mises, the only true "liberal" position is that of open borders.
The objection, then, seems to be when immigrants demand services that I, the taxpayer, must pay for (healthcare, housing, etc). The problem isn't one of government inaction in immigration, but instead of government intervention via the welfare state.
Any thoughts/opinions welcome. For those who have read and studied, please recommend articles/books to read.
4
Posted on 7/21/14 at 9:55 pm to LordoftheManor
As Milton Friedman said "you can have open borders or you can have the welfare state, but you cannot have both."
Posted on 7/21/14 at 9:56 pm to LordoftheManor
Open borders with extremely minimal welfare to be had is the ideal situation. Can't have it both ways with the way the US is set up now, in my opinion.
Posted on 7/21/14 at 9:56 pm to LordoftheManor
First secure the border there are threat to our country if we just let everyone come unchecked.
Than reform immigration make it easier for law abiding. Citizens of foreign countries to enter or even tools here I think immigration is good but it should be legal immigration not an open door unchecked policy
Than reform immigration make it easier for law abiding. Citizens of foreign countries to enter or even tools here I think immigration is good but it should be legal immigration not an open door unchecked policy
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:03 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
First secure the border there are threat to our country if we just let everyone come unchecked.
I assume you're referring to gang violence, drugs, etc that comes from Mexico to the US. I don't think I believe that any government policy will satisfy the ends you are seeking.
I recommend this article
LINK
quote:
What do these three examples have to do with illegal immigration? They are just examples of what we might expect to get if we demand that government do something about this or any other problem. Do we think for a moment that the new war on illegal immigration will be any more successful than any of these previous programs? The market will overcome any obstacle government can place in its path. As long as there is a market for anything, the demand will be met. Let's look at some more of government's attempts to interfere with market demand.
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:08 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
As Milton Friedman said "you can have open borders or you can have the welfare state, but you cannot have both."
Truth
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:11 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
As Milton Friedman said "you can have open borders or you can have the welfare state, but you cannot have both."
/thread
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:11 pm to RogerTheShrubber
If this is true, then the fact that immigration is being made such a huge issue is utter crap. The welfare state drains and hurts the economy more than illegal immigration. The real conflict isn't between open borders and a welfare state but between liberalism and statism.
This post was edited on 7/21/14 at 10:14 pm
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:12 pm to LordoftheManor
quote:
The objection, then, seems to be when immigrants demand services that I, the taxpayer, must pay for (healthcare, housing, etc). The problem isn't one of government inaction in immigration, but instead of government intervention via the welfare state.
Correct.
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:12 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
As Milton Friedman said "you can have open borders or you can have the welfare state, but you cannot have both."
In the meantime, we could have a smaller welfare state, and more open borders.
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:13 pm to 90proofprofessional
Or just no fricking welfare state period.
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:13 pm to LordoftheManor
quote:
liberalism and statism.
One and the same.
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:14 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
As Milton Friedman said "you can have open borders or you can have the welfare state, but you cannot have both."
This needs to be repeated again.
Also, you can't ignore the irrational side of human beings when forming policy. Culture, violence, xenophobia, etc can all have disparate impact.
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:14 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
One and the same
I'm using Mises' definition. Let's redeem language, shall we?
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:15 pm to Manzielathon
quote:
Or just no fricking welfare state period.
Yeah, or that. It might happen soon, so we should probably just open the borders fa sho
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:15 pm to LordoftheManor
Well fine, if you wanna be a dick about it 
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:18 pm to LordoftheManor
I can see why you might be confused,, first regarding security:
quote:
I assume you're referring to gang violence, d
makes no difference what violence they are referring to, Anarchists are the only ones who propose a "no borders" policy, and Libertarians are not Anarchists. The duty of the government to maintain a sovereign nation state is not in question.
If the "we are the world" "one world, no borders no boundary's" socialists actually got the lack of border accountability they propose, their lives would be torn out from under them, they are just too stupid to know it.
quote:
trade unions and special interests that keep wages above their true value.
now you're getting closer, there should be no minimum wage, because it's not the governments business to tell two people what contractual rate they may want to enter into at, there is no "minimum value" of somebodys work. The free market is astoundingly good at making sure work is valued at the real rate is is worth.
quote:
The objection, then, seems to be when immigrants demand services that I, the taxpayer, must pay for (healthcare, housing, etc).
bingo,, get rid of the welfare state and the huge majority of people who come are coming to bring value to our economy and not become wards of the state.
keep at it, you'll get there.
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:20 pm to Vols&Shaft83
quote:
Vols&Shaft83
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:22 pm to Jagd Tiger
quote:
makes no difference what violence they are referring to, Anarchists are the only ones who propose a "no borders" policy, and Libertarians are not Anarchists. The duty of the government to maintain a sovereign nation state is not in question.
Is it the role of the government to restrict the free movement of labor?
Posted on 7/21/14 at 10:33 pm to LordoftheManor
quote:
Is it the role of the government to restrict the free movement of labor?
No but it really hasn't much to do w/ the quote you made either.
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