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Why studies on Education Systems amuse me

Posted on 6/4/14 at 12:10 am
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 12:10 am
I'm often amused at how Americans can willfully ignore the obvious but come to believe fantasies that their daily lives easily refute if they'd just admit it to themselves. Education is a biggie. You often see comparisons that rate X state tops and Y state bottom and of course, people love to latch on and say, "see, X state has awesome policies".

Cmon people. Work at least a little harder. Here. Let me run a couple things by you.

Two high schools. SAME state and district meaning same policies, same superintendent etc.

School A - On Standardized test, scores in every category(Science, Social Studies, Math etc). NO SCORE under 97% pass.

School B - No score in any category HIGHER than 71%. Lowest scores are at 37%.

These two schools were in a southern state. Let's try this elsewhere. Perhaps a state known for being educationally awesome.

School A - Worst score in any category. 86%
School B - Best score 71%. Worst 55%.

You wont believe me, but for the 2nd example, I accurately guessed the school's demographic IN ADVANCE within 2%. For a city I know nothing about.

You too can play this game. Go to greatschools.net and pick pretty much any district anywhere in the country. You'll find the same thing AND, eventually, you will literally be able to accurately guess the student demographics based upon score comparisons alone.

So, we can go on thinking that the reason School A is better than School B is due to some fantastic plan their principal has, better per student funding or some other silliness like that, or, we can identify the real problem. The former will lead to a lot of pretense with new policies that get the same results the old ones got.

Or. We could actually try something novel an talk about/address the real cause of the disparities.

Nah. Too hard. Might be called names if ya do that!
This post was edited on 6/4/14 at 12:27 am
Posted by stuntman
Florida
Member since Jan 2013
9099 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 12:16 am to
"Members of minority groups that lag educationally, economically, or otherwise are to continue to behave in the future as they have in the past — and, if they do not get the same outcomes as others, it is society’s fault. That is the bottom-line message of multiculturalism."- Thomas Sowell
Posted by MikeyFL
Las Vegas, NV
Member since Sep 2010
9593 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 12:32 am to
I might mention that the obsession with educational test scores is a somewhat peculiar American obsession. When I lived in Hong Kong, several educational experts downplayed their top scores, noting that their students lacked the creativity and entrepreneurial skill to be successful in a knowledge-based economy. In fact, Hong Kong's entire education system has been undergoing extensive reforms since the mid-2000's. They mostly think PISA scores are utterly useless.

If there is one common thread throughout the world, it is that no country is satisfied with their educational system.
This post was edited on 6/4/14 at 12:33 am
Posted by BRgetthenet
Member since Oct 2011
117701 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 12:33 am to
Maybe go look at the students in some of those schools instead of reading about them/predicting their SES on the Internet.

That'd paint a better picture.
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 12:38 am to
quote:

Maybe go look at the students in some of those schools instead of reading about them/predicting their SES on the Internet.

That'd paint a better picture.
Um. That's sort of my point. That the variance isn't one of expenditure or policy but of whom actually resides in the school.
Posted by Roger Klarvin
DFW
Member since Nov 2012
46511 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 12:48 am to
This isnt some secret, education is not as valued in black and hispanic culture as it is in white and asian culture. Obviously thats painting with a broad brush, but across the population as a whole it is true.

And I dont really care if someone finds that offensive.
Posted by EA6B
TX
Member since Dec 2012
14754 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 12:50 am to
U.S. students are ranked almost last among other developed nations in math and science, but when the test scores are broken down by race, and the minority test scores are tossed out the U.S. moves to number two in the world. The problem is obvious, the solution not so much, and I am too old to care if someone calls me names.
Posted by Asgard Device
The Daedalus
Member since Apr 2011
11562 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 1:29 am to
This is why I cringe at how people blame government policy or expenditures on a particular public school failing, when performance is almost always dictated by demographics and/or how selective the school can be in who attends.

Posted by mmcgrath
Indianapolis
Member since Feb 2010
35397 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 2:04 am to
quote:

You wont believe me, but for the 2nd example, I accurately guessed the school's demographic IN ADVANCE within 2%. For a city I know nothing about.

You too can play this game. Go to greatschools.net and pick pretty much any district anywhere in the country. You'll find the same thing AND, eventually, you will literally be able to accurately guess the student demographics based upon score comparisons alone.

So, we can go on thinking that the reason School A is better than School B is due to some fantastic plan their principal has, better per student funding or some other silliness like that, or, we can identify the real problem. The former will lead to a lot of pretense with new policies that get the same results the old ones got.

Income Level and Age of School Facility are the greatest influences. Try to tell me otherwise.
Posted by cubsfan5150
Member since Nov 2007
15768 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 4:26 am to
Is this true? Where do you find this info at? Impressive if true, and shame on the media for refusing to mention this info, again if true.
Posted by ChineseBandit58
Pearland, TX
Member since Aug 2005
42596 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 4:38 am to
quote:

This isnt some secret, education is not as valued in black and hispanic culture as it is in white and asian culture. Obviously thats painting with a broad brush, but across the population as a whole it is true.

And I dont really care if someone finds that offensive.

THis is the 800 pound gorilla in the room that the educational system refuses to take note of.

To them, the answer must be that the districts don't have enough money, the teachers must not be doing their jobs, or the curriculum needs to be adjusted.

The true fact of the matter is that unless the parents of the students are motivated to motivate their students, nothing will ever change.

oh - and they do find the truth offensive.
This post was edited on 6/4/14 at 4:40 am
Posted by ShortyRob
Member since Oct 2008
82116 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 6:20 am to
quote:

Income Level and Age of School Facility are the greatest influences. Try to tell me otherwise.

Oh pahleez. In my first example, the better performing school was built exactly 3 years after the shitty performing school. Both were over 40 years old.

You could tear down the poor performing school tomorrow and put a modern edifice in its place but with the same students and you'd get the same results.

Yes, income level is an influence but, not nearly as great as demographics. Two schools with equal income levels but widely diverging demographics will have diverging results almost without fail and you damned sure wont go broke betting on which one is doing worse. You'll miss occasionally, but you'd be rich.
Posted by SquirrelyBama
Member since Nov 2011
6389 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 6:59 am to
If we move the bad students so they can be with the goods ones
All will be fixed, right.......


Until you address what's going on head on in most situations
You'll go in circles or worse
This post was edited on 6/4/14 at 7:07 am
Posted by SmackoverHawg
Member since Oct 2011
27332 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 7:29 am to
Not to mention education at the shittier schools being dumbed down to accommodate the poorer performing students. You get out what you put in. Certain groups do not value education. But I will guarantee low income whites value it more than low income blacks or Hispanics. That is the main reason you see more upward mobility.
Posted by SpidermanTUba
my house
Member since May 2004
36128 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 9:54 pm to
quote:


Or. We could actually try something novel an talk about/address the real cause of the disparities.



Or we could just blame the parents and call it a day.



quote:

Nah. Too hard. Might be called names if ya do that!




You just acknowledged that our school system is still partially segregated, with blacks getting the crap schools and whites the good ones. The only people you'll need to worry about calling you names for that are your right wing friends.

This post was edited on 6/4/14 at 9:56 pm
Posted by tiderider
Member since Nov 2012
7703 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 10:32 pm to
schools are not segregated ... communities are ...

the race of a school has zero influence on its achievement ... quit blaming white-flight for the poor state of all-black schools ...
Posted by SpidermanTUba
my house
Member since May 2004
36128 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 11:25 pm to
quote:

schools are not segregated ... communities are ...



I'm puzzled as to how that fact can even be true. Schools draw students from their local communities. If the communities are segregated then so must be the schools.

quote:


the race of a school has zero influence on its achievement ...


The evidence presented by ShortyRob seems to contradict that opinion.

Posted by Asgard Device
The Daedalus
Member since Apr 2011
11562 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 11:28 pm to
quote:

Schools draw students from their local communities. If the communities are segregated then so must be the schools.


Segregation implies that there is the act of separation. When something just exists already separated then its not really segregation.

Segregation was worth a try and I like the intent behind it, but it didn't work so there's really no point in going down that road again.
Posted by SpidermanTUba
my house
Member since May 2004
36128 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 11:39 pm to
quote:



Segregation implies that there is the act of separation.


No. It implies segregation.

quote:

When something just exists already separated then its not really segregation.


Yeah. It "exists already segregated" It just happened that way.


quote:


Segregation was worth a try and I like the intent behind it, but it didn't work so there's really no point in going down that road again.



OMG you're a bigot.

Posted by HailHailtoMichigan!
Mission Viejo, CA
Member since Mar 2012
69299 posts
Posted on 6/4/14 at 11:48 pm to
quote:

SpidermanTUba
TUba, what's your solution?
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