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Started By
Message
Is Jimmy Graham worth more than Gronk?
Posted on 2/26/14 at 5:22 pm
Posted on 2/26/14 at 5:22 pm
Ok, so given the supposed gap in Jimmy and the Saints for his new contract, let's see what everyone thinks in this comparison. I think it is fair to say that both Gronk and Jimmy have had great QBs throwing to them, so that would be a wash. I also think it is very clear to anyone with a brain that Gronk is an actual blocker when he's in at TE to block unlike Jimmy.
That all said, here are some stats comparing the two where Gronk actually grades out as a better pass catcher.
Gronk's best season is better than Jimmy this season and any season in yards, TDs, and YPC and he is a legitimate blocker as well.
Gronk has played in about 80% of the games that Jimmy has and still has more TDs and has a higher career YPC average. Graham literally only has more yardage because Gronk missed 9 games this past season and 5 games the year before.
YPG averages:
Jimmmy = 62.3 ypg
Gronk = 65.1 ypg
YPC averages:
Jimmy = 12.8 ypc
Gronk = 14.4 ypc
TDs per game:
Jimmy = 0.66 TD/game
Gronk = 0.84 TD/game
Catches/target:
Jimmy = 64% (7.6 targets/game)
Gronk = 69% (6.6 targets/game)
So Gronk has more TDs in less targets than Graham. He has had injuries the past two seasons, but it all stems back to one injury that may be healed.
So looking at Graham, how can he be considered the best TE in the league if this season isn't even better than Gronk's 2011 season, Gronk has outperformed Jimmy over the past 4 seasons as a whole, AND Gronk can actually block?
So he's not the best TE in my opinion. What's yours?
I know many will say durability, but it's not like Gronk is missing games a ton in a 10 year career. He's missed games the past year and a half based off fluke injuries.
That all said, here are some stats comparing the two where Gronk actually grades out as a better pass catcher.
Gronk's best season is better than Jimmy this season and any season in yards, TDs, and YPC and he is a legitimate blocker as well.
Gronk has played in about 80% of the games that Jimmy has and still has more TDs and has a higher career YPC average. Graham literally only has more yardage because Gronk missed 9 games this past season and 5 games the year before.
YPG averages:
Jimmmy = 62.3 ypg
Gronk = 65.1 ypg
YPC averages:
Jimmy = 12.8 ypc
Gronk = 14.4 ypc
TDs per game:
Jimmy = 0.66 TD/game
Gronk = 0.84 TD/game
Catches/target:
Jimmy = 64% (7.6 targets/game)
Gronk = 69% (6.6 targets/game)
So Gronk has more TDs in less targets than Graham. He has had injuries the past two seasons, but it all stems back to one injury that may be healed.
So looking at Graham, how can he be considered the best TE in the league if this season isn't even better than Gronk's 2011 season, Gronk has outperformed Jimmy over the past 4 seasons as a whole, AND Gronk can actually block?
So he's not the best TE in my opinion. What's yours?
I know many will say durability, but it's not like Gronk is missing games a ton in a 10 year career. He's missed games the past year and a half based off fluke injuries.
This post was edited on 2/26/14 at 5:24 pm
6
Posted on 2/26/14 at 5:28 pm to Geauxgurt
He's a more complete player, but he's hurt a lot, so I would say Jimmy is worth more a year.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 5:28 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
Is Jimmy Graham worth more than Gronk?
Yes...because Gronk's deal is two years old.
If both were healthy and up for contract, Gronkowski would be the guy who should get the better deal.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 5:33 pm to moneyg
quote:
Yes...because Gronk's deal is two years old.
If both were healthy and up for contract, Gronkowski would be the guy who should get the better deal.
So if Gronk is worth more, than Graham should'nt get much more than Gronk's deal. It's not like his deal is 5 years old or something. It's been 2 years.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 5:34 pm to Patrick O Rly
quote:
He's a more complete player, but he's hurt a lot, so I would say Jimmy is worth more a year.
He's missed about a season, but it's not like he has a chronic injury, they were just fluke injuries.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 5:37 pm to moneyg
Gronks a better pure TE IMO. But, Graham lines up split out more than at TE. Which questions what position does Graham really play?
Graham is a better receiver than Gronk, but not by much. While Gronk is a way better run blocker than Graham.
Plus, Graham disappeared in some big games for us. Hes great, but struggles against teams that play him physically. Gronk doesnt.
And I dont like how we sub Graham out during running situations. At all. It tips our hand. When Grahams in the game, its most likely a pass. When Watson is lined up at TE and Grahams out, its a run. Gronk can stay in and play every snap. Doesnt tip the Pats hand.
Also, Gronk is still just 24. Graham is 27.
Gronk does have some serious durability issues right now. Nobody can deny that. But when both guys are healthy and 100%, Gronk is the better TE. Graham is a little better at receiver, but not by much.
And like someone said... if both were healthy and were signing contracts this offseason, Gronk would get a little more.
Graham is a better receiver than Gronk, but not by much. While Gronk is a way better run blocker than Graham.
Plus, Graham disappeared in some big games for us. Hes great, but struggles against teams that play him physically. Gronk doesnt.
And I dont like how we sub Graham out during running situations. At all. It tips our hand. When Grahams in the game, its most likely a pass. When Watson is lined up at TE and Grahams out, its a run. Gronk can stay in and play every snap. Doesnt tip the Pats hand.
Also, Gronk is still just 24. Graham is 27.
Gronk does have some serious durability issues right now. Nobody can deny that. But when both guys are healthy and 100%, Gronk is the better TE. Graham is a little better at receiver, but not by much.
And like someone said... if both were healthy and were signing contracts this offseason, Gronk would get a little more.
This post was edited on 2/26/14 at 5:38 pm
Posted on 2/26/14 at 5:38 pm to Geauxgurt
quote:
He's missed about a season, but it's not like he has a chronic injury, they were just fluke injuries.
8 surgeries at 24 is a ton. Don't care if it was fluke injuries.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 6:10 pm to Geauxgurt
Who is Jimmy Graham?
Posted on 2/26/14 at 6:24 pm to Midget Death Squad
Is there any stats to show who drops more passes? The only reason Jimmy lines up more at wide receiver is because he loses snaps on running plays.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 6:29 pm to Midget Death Squad
quote:
Who is Jimmy Graham?
I think he was a basketball player for the U a few years ago...
@ the OP, I would value them similarly. Stats aside, I think Graham is a little bit of a better receiving option: Gronk has been the clear-cut #1 option for the Pats for a few seasons now and I feel like it skews it a little. Colston, Sproles and others were still arguably as much as a #1 target as Graham for us until this last season. Gronk is obviously a better blocker so I would put both of their worths around $8M
Posted on 2/26/14 at 6:30 pm to shaqtaw
Dropped passes:
2013: Graham- 6, catch % =63.2%. Gronk-2, catch %=60.9%
2012- Graham-15. 64.9%. Gronk - 7, 71.4%
2011- Graham-6. 67.8% Gronk - 8. 74.4%
3 year total drops: Graham-27. Gronk-17
3 year total catch %: Graham - 65.3%. Gronk - 68.9%
And yea thats the reason Graham lines up at WR... and thats not a good thing. Tips your hand to the opposing team based on who is in the game.
2013: Graham- 6, catch % =63.2%. Gronk-2, catch %=60.9%
2012- Graham-15. 64.9%. Gronk - 7, 71.4%
2011- Graham-6. 67.8% Gronk - 8. 74.4%
3 year total drops: Graham-27. Gronk-17
3 year total catch %: Graham - 65.3%. Gronk - 68.9%
And yea thats the reason Graham lines up at WR... and thats not a good thing. Tips your hand to the opposing team based on who is in the game.
This post was edited on 2/26/14 at 6:49 pm
Posted on 2/26/14 at 6:30 pm to Geauxgurt
Inflation. In NFL terms it exceeds the real world. About equal players always demand a little more than the last comparable player.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 6:38 pm to KG5989
quote:Over those 3 years Graham has missed one game and Gronk has missed 14.
Dropped passes:
2013: Graham- 6. Gronk-2
2012- Graham-15. Gronk-7
2011- Graham-6. Gronk-8.
3 year total drops: Graham-27. Gronk-17
Drops per game:
Graham- 0.574
Gronk- 0.500
So Gronk has had his own issues with drops and I've said that before.
Edit:
I've also said before that I'd prefer Graham in the passing game, though it's not a huge margin. But Gronk can block and in 4 years Graham still can't do that effectively.
After 2011 I said give him 2 years and it's been 2 years. With Graham we'll always need a blocking TE and then that tips off our plays(same problem we had with Ingram mostly in on running plays before last season).
This post was edited on 2/26/14 at 6:42 pm
Posted on 2/26/14 at 6:42 pm to bonethug0108
Yea true...
And i wouldnt really say either of those guys have a drop issue. Graham did last year, but its not like he has been inconsistent other than that year. . But overall, both guys are pretty sure handed.
And i wouldnt really say either of those guys have a drop issue. Graham did last year, but its not like he has been inconsistent other than that year. . But overall, both guys are pretty sure handed.
This post was edited on 2/26/14 at 6:43 pm
Posted on 2/26/14 at 10:03 pm to Patrick O Rly
quote:
He's a more complete player, but he's hurt a lot,
He signed the contract before breaking his forearm. His injury is a hindsight situation. Jimmy G could sign a big contract and get hurt, any player can. So it's still a good comparison to whether Graham deserves as much money. The answer is no. Gronk is a more dominant TE and overall football player. Anything over 9-10 million per year for Graham is too much.
Posted on 2/26/14 at 11:04 pm to KG5989
[quote]Plus, Graham disappeared in some big games for us. quote]
So, Gronk never disappears in big games? He may not disappear in the same sense that you think Graham does... but disappearing because of injury is worse than just getting shut down by a good defense for a game.
If you want to go just by stats (which is what you are doing in this tread) Gronk wasn't relevant in 3 of the 5 playoff games the Pats have played in since he has been on the team.
So, Gronk never disappears in big games? He may not disappear in the same sense that you think Graham does... but disappearing because of injury is worse than just getting shut down by a good defense for a game.
If you want to go just by stats (which is what you are doing in this tread) Gronk wasn't relevant in 3 of the 5 playoff games the Pats have played in since he has been on the team.
This post was edited on 2/26/14 at 11:05 pm
Posted on 2/26/14 at 11:23 pm to Noplacelikehome
The only argument Graham has is health.
When healthy, Gronk is as good of a receiver as Graham and ten times the run blocker.
When healthy, Gronk is as good of a receiver as Graham and ten times the run blocker.
Posted on 2/27/14 at 1:14 am to Noplacelikehome
Yeah but Gronk was still blocking well in those games that you said he wasnt relevant in. Maybe not at catching the ball. But hes still a damn good blocking TE.
And I only really see 2 games where he wasnt relevant in the passing game. The Giants playoff game in 2011 and Houston in 2012. But they destroyed Houston. And thats when Gronk got hurt as well. But he can make a diff in the running game as well.
In 5 career playoff games, Gronk has led the Pats in receiving in 3 of those 5 games. And all of those games were with Welker, Hernandez, Vereen, etc. And 1 of those games where he didnt was against Houston and they destroyed them. In 4 career playoff games, Graham has led the Saints in receiving in only 1 game. Which was vs the Eagles this past year where he had 44yards.
Graham has to come off the field when its a run play though. And when we are down and need our best player to make a play, thats when he disappears. This post season, 2 games, he had 4 catches for 52 yards on 10 targets. And its not like we blew out the Eagles.
Yea thats not true at all. This was the 1st year that Gronk was the clear cut #1 option for the Pats. He was playing with Welker, 100 catches a year, Hernandez, and Vereen catches the ball out the backfield as well.
And I only really see 2 games where he wasnt relevant in the passing game. The Giants playoff game in 2011 and Houston in 2012. But they destroyed Houston. And thats when Gronk got hurt as well. But he can make a diff in the running game as well.
In 5 career playoff games, Gronk has led the Pats in receiving in 3 of those 5 games. And all of those games were with Welker, Hernandez, Vereen, etc. And 1 of those games where he didnt was against Houston and they destroyed them. In 4 career playoff games, Graham has led the Saints in receiving in only 1 game. Which was vs the Eagles this past year where he had 44yards.
Graham has to come off the field when its a run play though. And when we are down and need our best player to make a play, thats when he disappears. This post season, 2 games, he had 4 catches for 52 yards on 10 targets. And its not like we blew out the Eagles.
quote:
Gronk has been the clear-cut #1 option for the Pats for a few seasons now and I feel like it skews it a little
Yea thats not true at all. This was the 1st year that Gronk was the clear cut #1 option for the Pats. He was playing with Welker, 100 catches a year, Hernandez, and Vereen catches the ball out the backfield as well.
This post was edited on 2/27/14 at 1:44 am
Posted on 2/27/14 at 1:31 am to KG5989
quote:
Yeah but Gronk was still blocking well in those games that you said he wasnt relevant in. Maybe not at catching the ball. But hes still a damn good blocking TE.
He meant Gronk wasn't playing when he said he wasn't relevant.
Posted on 2/27/14 at 1:42 am to saintsfan22
Yea i saw that.... but read the edit. He was talking about stat wise in 5 playoff games.
I already agreed about Gronk being injured. But most of the people in here were comparing the 2 when they are healthy.
And Gronk is still just 24 years old. Graham is 27.
I already agreed about Gronk being injured. But most of the people in here were comparing the 2 when they are healthy.
And Gronk is still just 24 years old. Graham is 27.
This post was edited on 2/27/14 at 1:45 am
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