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re: No MLB players elected to the HOF
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:31 pm to sms151t
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:31 pm to sms151t
quote:
He compiled a very nice stat line, but sometimes as baseball fans we get engrossed with stats and do not look at the player for who he was and the impact he made on the game.
Oh good Christ. So let's ignore all of the statistical advancements that allow for the measurement of a player's worth and just go back to ye olde ocular examination. Great idea.
1
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:38 pm to Baloo
quote:
Who had the higher OPS+, a stat adjusted for context?
This is the part where I have trouble with the numbers people produce to compare different eras.
Lifetime Biggio and Ryne had near identical OPS - and yet you seem to conclude Biggio was better adjusted for his era? I think you generally try to be fair so shouldn't you notice you have (inadvertently?) picked an statistic which misrepresents the comparative careers of both players?
How can this possibly be when we (I think or we're done debating I guess) understand the 80s were an era where OPS, HR, BA were greatly lowered compared to the modern steroid era? You have to have made a major mistake or used a lousy means of adjustment
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:42 pm to Rickety Cricket
Again, you are putting someone in just based off numbers. I think that is very dangerous. Do you consider Jim Rice an all time great? I do not, therefor I do not believe he should be in the HoF.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:43 pm to Baloo
quote:
Yes, when adjust for context, Biggio's numbers are even better than Ryno's. All of those stolen bases in an era of the home run was almost unheard of.
Biggio played in nearly 700 more games than Sandberg, and has a whopping 70 more steals. Sandberg was a great base stealer consider the power he had.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:44 pm to molsusports
OPS+ is different from OPS. OPS+ is specifically adjusted for ballpark and league average. It is on a scale in which 100 is league average. Biggio's 136 OPS+ in his peak means that he was 36% better than league average at a neutral park (actually 18%, but let's not get into that statistical problem).
I use OPS+ and ERA+ when comparing across era for this exact reason. It "normalizes" the stat and put people on the same level. It's not perfect, but it is a good tool to compare across time.
I use OPS+ and ERA+ when comparing across era for this exact reason. It "normalizes" the stat and put people on the same level. It's not perfect, but it is a good tool to compare across time.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:44 pm to beaver
Completely biased but I'd vote for Curt.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:45 pm to sms151t
quote:
You sir, then are putting people in just based off numbers. I am a fan of baseball, but I feel the HoF is for the best of the best and not just based on stats. Do you honestly consider Biggio, Blyleven, or Jim Rice the best of the best?
I guess we have a significant opinion on the definition of "Best of the Best".
My opinion is - the Hall of Fame should include the best of the best "Baseball Players" during whichever era they played. I do believe that metrics are merely a tool as a measuring stick -- however, I also believe there should be other intangibles that go into "Best of the Best". Your intangible seems to be "Did I want to watch them?"
To answer that question -- for Biggio, hell yes, I loved watching him play. During his career, he was the epiotme of what I believe Baseball is all about. He gave his best effort every play of every game. He played at least 155 games half the seasons he played. He also had 3 seasons that he played 162 games. That is unheard of in modern baseball. That said - I am obviously an Astros fan and am unabashadly biased.
However, I truly believe if Biggio had played his entire career with the Yankees, Cubs, or Mets -- his HOF candidacy would be evaluated completely different than what it is today. 1) I probably wouldn't have wanted to watch him much, therefore I devalue his accomplishments as a MLB player, and 2) Larger media would accept his play as "Best of the Best" consideration.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:49 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Biggio played in nearly 700 more games than Sandberg, and has a whopping 70 more steals.
This goes to my point how Biggio's late career in the quest for 3000 hits hurt him. In his last 750 games, he stole a total of 33 bases. Actually, in his 1,151 games, he stole 68 bases.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:50 pm to Baloo
Baloo, do you know if the park factor in OPS+ adjusts all of their statistics to their home park?
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:50 pm to BuckToothBilly
I have no issue with your defending Biggio, as he is a guy that under a pure numbers standpoint deserves mention. I just feel that there should be more than just numbers involved. My first post about him, stated that the 3 positions, multiple gold gloves etc for a reason to include him. You just focused in on my comment of (paraphrasing) was he someone I wanted to watch and stop everything.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:51 pm to Baloo
quote:
OPS+ is different from OPS. OPS+ is specifically adjusted for ballpark and league average. It is on a scale in which 100 is league average. Biggio's 136 OPS+ in his peak means that he was 36% better than league average at a neutral park (actually 18%, but let's not get into that statistical problem).
I use OPS+ and ERA+ when comparing across era for this exact reason. It "normalizes" the stat and put people on the same level. It's not perfect, but it is a good tool to compare across time.
I understand the principles of this statistic. That was the point of how I phrased my earlier response (objecting to the results people get when they try to compare different eras).
I just believe in the principle that all statistics need an eyeball test when you examine your result on the other side. Certainly if most factors could be controlled then you could compare people from different eras... but when you look at result after result it turns out you just can't
People who love numbers hate to admit this but this is just too obvious to dwell on IMO. The numbers from teh 80s and the steroid era are wildly different. For anyone to examine the comparative careers of Biggio and Ryne and come to that conclusion is just one of many attempted adjustments that calls the validity of the extrapolations into more than question - it demonstrates they are mostly horseshite
Posted on 1/9/13 at 3:52 pm to Lester Earl
It adjusts their home stats to their home park, and the road stats to their average road park. I don't have all of the math, but it is ballpark dependent as well league dependent.
Well, b-ref's version is. Not all OPS+ calculations do, on other sites. Accept no substitutes.
Well, b-ref's version is. Not all OPS+ calculations do, on other sites. Accept no substitutes.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 4:04 pm to Lsuhoohoo
quote:
I do. He was a game changer for most of his career. A table setter for the guys that get all the love. Like I said, that part of baseball seems to be under appreciated.
I agree it may be under appreciated, but no way he gets in with only 2700 hits. No MVPs, not batting titles, no championships, only a handful of GG. Only 7 AS. Im not sure what would vault him. Like I said the 3,000 is pretty much all he hangs his hat on.
compare that to the 2B we just mentioned(not Utley, but the other 3) and they have MVPs, double digit AS games/Gold Gloves. In Alomar's case, he battled for batting titles yearly. Kent is the all time HR leader at the position.
they all have these other major superlatives to hang their hat on.
This post was edited on 1/9/13 at 4:05 pm
Posted on 1/9/13 at 4:14 pm to beaver
was Maddux up this year?
Posted on 1/9/13 at 4:28 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
Like I said the 3,000 is pretty much all he hangs his hat on
Yet, that is about 500 more hits than Ted Williams had in his 19 year career. And it has Biggio sitting 20th ALL TIME in career hits. How the hell does that not qualify as a superlative? Also, have you looked at his 1998 season? Any other year -- he makes MVP. He was top-5 in MVP votes what 3 or 4 times?
BTW - I do not advocate saying Biggio was a better baseball player than Ted Williams. Different ERAs, different game. I just used him as an example because the duration of their careers are very similar. Also - Biggio had 1,100+ BBs in his career. Ted Williams had over 2,200. WHOLY HELL that's a lot of walks!
Posted on 1/9/13 at 4:33 pm to BuckToothBilly
Didn't Williams have 2 breaks in career so he didn't truly play 19 years? Or does that include the breaks?
Posted on 1/9/13 at 4:40 pm to sms151t
quote:
Or does that include the breaks?
It accounts for it - 1943 - 1945 seasons.
Baseball reference for Ted is here.
Posted on 1/9/13 at 4:48 pm to BuckToothBilly
quote:
Yet, that is about 500 more hits than Ted Williams had in his 19 year career.
That's my point the all time great players do not need to reach milestones (he has 500 HRs btw). The ones that do hit these milestones, almost always have other superlatives to back up their greatness.
Ted Williams won 2 MVPs and could have won 5 more. He was a 5x batting champ. He's arguably the best hitter of all time.
quote:
And it has Biggio sitting 20th ALL TIME in career hits. How the hell does that not qualify as a superlative?
because its a number compiled over time. It doesnt pinpoint greatness at any one point in time in his career.
With all those hits, he never actually led the league in hits or batting average.
Looking at the top 20 hit leaders, Id say every player on the list has led the league in hits or has a batting title, except maybe Dave Winfield(#20 all time..he played forever) or Eddie Murray(who is 3k hit, 500 HR club)
Posted on 1/9/13 at 5:48 pm to Lester Earl
quote:
because its a number compiled over time. It doesnt pinpoint greatness at any one point in time in his career.
Last item I'll point out... just because I'm stubborn:
In 1997, Biggio finished 4th in MVP voting. Bagwell finished 3rd. Many people feel that the votors split between Bagwell and Biggio because they both played for the same team.
In 1998, Biggio finished 5th in MVP voting. Moises Alou finished 3rd. Again -- voting split between 2 team members. Both years, the combined votes were enough to garner first place. By the way - first place in 1998 - Sosa/Maguire, enough said.
I point this out because those two seasons WERE great seasons for a 2nd Baseman, or any other position player for that matter. Especially for a 2nd Baseman who started his career as a catcher. It just so happens that 2 years in a row, weird shite happened in MLB.
This post was edited on 1/9/13 at 5:49 pm
Posted on 1/9/13 at 6:22 pm to BuckToothBilly
lol, yea like i said, he was never the best player on his own team.
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