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Message
Spinoff Thread -- Handgun Stopping Power
Posted on 3/22/16 at 9:08 am
Posted on 3/22/16 at 9:08 am
The recent "semi-epic" (and all too common) thread on "9 vs. 40" contained some good info. But some of that info seemed to be obscured by the myriad opinions that were tossed around.
So I wanted to add the following in a separate thread. I didn't dream this stuff up -- it comes from some pretty authoritative sources.
The concept of handgun stopping power is exaggerated in movies and on TV to the point that some people tend to think handguns emit "death rays," knocking attackers off their feet. We know intellectually (I hope) that this isn't true, but the "brainwashing" effect of TV & movies is still pretty powerful. So ........
1. First point: Handguns chambered in the common self-defense calibers, loaded with SD ammo, are pretty equal in terms of "stopping power." Cartridges like 9mm are loaded pretty "hot" with really well designed bullets, to ensure that the bullet penetrates deeply enough to reach vital organs. Cartridges like .40 or .357 SIG are "downloaded" a bit to ensure that their well-designed bullets don't over-penetrate. All of them just drill holes in bad guys.
2. Second point: Quote from Dr. Vincent DiMaio, noted pathologist and author of the medical textbook Gunshot Wounds,) --- "Stopping power comes from where you hit the person and how many times you can hit them.” This guy (40 years of experience as a medical examiner, author of four textbooks) knows this stuff - caliber is relatively unimportant when comparing handguns. Accuracy and multiple hits are very important.
3. Final point: Watch this video on "knockdown power." LINK
So I wanted to add the following in a separate thread. I didn't dream this stuff up -- it comes from some pretty authoritative sources.
The concept of handgun stopping power is exaggerated in movies and on TV to the point that some people tend to think handguns emit "death rays," knocking attackers off their feet. We know intellectually (I hope) that this isn't true, but the "brainwashing" effect of TV & movies is still pretty powerful. So ........
1. First point: Handguns chambered in the common self-defense calibers, loaded with SD ammo, are pretty equal in terms of "stopping power." Cartridges like 9mm are loaded pretty "hot" with really well designed bullets, to ensure that the bullet penetrates deeply enough to reach vital organs. Cartridges like .40 or .357 SIG are "downloaded" a bit to ensure that their well-designed bullets don't over-penetrate. All of them just drill holes in bad guys.
2. Second point: Quote from Dr. Vincent DiMaio, noted pathologist and author of the medical textbook Gunshot Wounds,) --- "Stopping power comes from where you hit the person and how many times you can hit them.” This guy (40 years of experience as a medical examiner, author of four textbooks) knows this stuff - caliber is relatively unimportant when comparing handguns. Accuracy and multiple hits are very important.
3. Final point: Watch this video on "knockdown power." LINK
6
Posted on 3/22/16 at 9:10 am to dawg23
Good post, but I don't think we needed another thread on the subject.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 9:11 am to dawg23
I like to use 00 buckshot in my 12ga pistol.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 9:23 am to dawg23
quote:
Cartridges like 9mm are loaded pretty "hot" with really well designed bullets, to ensure that the bullet penetrates deeply enough to reach vital organs. Cartridges like .40 or .357 SIG are "downloaded" a bit to ensure that their well-designed bullets don't over-penetrate. All of them just drill holes in bad guys.
Where does this info come from? I would be interested in doing some reading.
The research I've done in watching independent testers on YouTube shows that you actually get less penetration with increased velocity since the bullet expands at a faster rate. But this also creates a better/worse (depending on how you look at it) permanent wound cavity. And while some may doubt the validity of multiple independent testers, they use the same standards as the FBI and some even take it further than that to use two or three different types of media as well.
Of course this is all dependent on a well-designed hollow point with a bonded jacket. If you get jacket separation and the lead core doesn't expand much, it can act as an FMJ.
But it's funny how people blindly believe Hollywood despite them knowing Hollywood lies in other arenas as well (medicine, law, crime scenes, etc.). Every time I see a person fly off his/her feet when shot with a handgun in a movie I cringe. Or the single shot to the chest of an attacker and he/she is immediately dead. People find it crazy when I tell them that the person shot would most likely still be very alive and the shooter would probably watch that person choke on his/her own blood after a while. Hollywood lies - shocking!
Posted on 3/22/16 at 9:23 am to mylsuhat
Posted on 3/22/16 at 9:51 am to bapple
quote:You're right, but it depends a lot on bullet design. What you say is very true, for example, for most .380 ammo. It's really hard to find good .380 ammo that will expand significantly and penetrate adequately.
The research I've done in watching independent testers on YouTube shows that you actually get less penetration with increased velocity since the bullet expands at a faster rate.
Generally the faster a bullet travels, the more it expands. And the more it expands, the more energy it takes to push that larger surface area into the object. I often use the analogy of pushing a map pin into sheetrock vs. pushing a railroad spike into sheetrock. The spike, having a larger diameter, requires more force/energy to shove it into the drywall.
Speer was one of the first manufacturers to attack the problem from an "engineering" perspective. When they introduced their Gold Dot "short barreled revolver" cartridge in .38 Special (GDHP23921) a few years ago it was somewhat revolutionary. This bullet was designed to expand at lower velocities (since snub-nosed revolvers don't generate velocities as great as what one would typically see from a 6" barrel. I presume the jacket is thinned strategically, or the "partition cuts" in the jacket are altered to facilitate expansion. I think Speer now has a line of "short barrel" cartridges in several calibers.
But as you know, all of this is still secondary to accuracy. Tom Givens was the first person I heard say "A good hit with a marginal bullet is better than a marginal hit with a good bullet."
Posted on 3/22/16 at 10:01 am to dawg23
quote:
Generally the faster a bullet travels, the more it expands. And the more it expands, the more energy it takes to push that larger surface area into the object. I often use the analogy of pushing a map pin into sheetrock vs. pushing a railroad spike into sheetrock. The spike, having a larger diameter, requires more force/energy to shove it into the drywall.
Good information that my EIT brain can wrap around.
But that definitely makes sense. I think I've seen a few tests comparing Speer's short barrel versions to their standard versions with little difference in performance. But since the Gold Dot is still one of the best out there, I doubt it matters much.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 10:30 am to ctiger69
I don't get the one shot stops chart. Who the hell stops at one shot if you are shooting at someone?
Posted on 3/22/16 at 10:44 am to DeoreDX
quote:
Who the hell stops at one shot if you are shooting at someone
Not me. If I have to fire my gun in SD I am unloading the clip. EVERY. TIME.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 10:50 am to bapple
Why is everyone so against explosive expansion?
The permanent pulverized wound cavity is the only part that matters unless you hit liver, heart, or spine.
A bullet that enters, and completely seperates within 6-10 inches and forms four .20 projectiles still traveling at 600fps or more has a much higher chance for a spinal injury or laceration to something important.
Powrball is dismissed by everyone, yet even the 9mm penetrates into the fourth gallon water jug, the same as hot .45 fmj.
Why are they dismissed? These aren't 1980s Glaser safety slugs.
The permanent pulverized wound cavity is the only part that matters unless you hit liver, heart, or spine.
A bullet that enters, and completely seperates within 6-10 inches and forms four .20 projectiles still traveling at 600fps or more has a much higher chance for a spinal injury or laceration to something important.
Powrball is dismissed by everyone, yet even the 9mm penetrates into the fourth gallon water jug, the same as hot .45 fmj.
Why are they dismissed? These aren't 1980s Glaser safety slugs.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 12:37 pm to dawg23
quote:
"Stopping power comes from where you hit the person and how many times you can hit them.”
Hence why I'd rather 3 extra rounds and reduced recoil.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 1:22 pm to X123F45
quote:
Rando
Look at the tests by ShootingTheBull410 on YouTube with the RIP round. He actually shot some into pork ribs and compared to Speer Gold Dot. The tiny petals that separated barely pierced the surface and stopped well short of the vitals. The only portion left was the small base which is about the speed and velocity of a 380 projectile.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 1:33 pm to Jester
Mehhh. One shot in the chest from a .300 win mag will probably be more effective than 3 FMJ's out of a .25acp in the chest. Stopping power is a very real thing, you just typically can't get it from a handgun. The ones that generate enough horsepower are huge and generally not loaded with bullets designed for humans.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 1:41 pm to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:My wife has one of these. I could not believe how small the cartridge is on those. Seems almost worthless. It is actually worthless for her since she cannot rack the slide.
.25acp
Posted on 3/22/16 at 1:49 pm to dawg23
Some folks may remember the George Temple incident several years ago. Temple took a .40 rd in the abdomen from the officer and another 4 shots from Perry Stevens Sig P220 .45 HST's. He didn't give up the fight and Perry put another rd right behind his ear. Toxocology reports came back negative though they suspected roid rage in the incident as Temple was a workout guru. This incident made me rethink my CCW choices.
LINK
LINK
quote:
According to Col. Greg Phares, "[Mr. Stevens] orders Mr. Temple to stop and get off the officer. The verbal commands are ignored and Mr. Stevens fires four shots, all of which struck Mr. Temple." Perry Stevens fired four shots into Temple's torso. Officer Harrison had already fired one shot into Temple's abdomen. With Temple still struggling with the officer, Perry continued to advance toward the scuffle. "He again orders Mr. Temple to stop what he was doing and get off the officer. Those commands are ignored and he fires a fifth shot and that hits his head. The incident is over with, and as you know, Mr. Temple is dead."
This post was edited on 3/22/16 at 1:51 pm
Posted on 3/22/16 at 1:59 pm to lsufan1971
You should be thinking shot placement, which always trumps "stopping power", as that incident demonstrates.
I believe in variety personally.
I believe in variety personally.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 2:09 pm to JamalSanders
quote:ALWAYS keep a few extra rounds in the mag unless you have another one right there. What happens if you shot 17 rounds and only hit the dude three times? Then, he gets up and charges you while you have a paperweight in your hand?
Not me. If I have to fire my gun in SD I am unloading the clip. EVERY. TIME.
Idk if it's right, but I practice in 3-5 shot bursts. I can control the muzzle emptying the whole mag, but not running out of bullets >>>>>>>>>> running out of bullets
quote:That's a throw gun brah
3 FMJ's out of a .25acp in the chest
quote:Don't most bigger departments run their own SD gun, caliber, and brand bullet tests every couple of years? I'm almost positive LSP, STPSO, BRPD, and JPSO do.
dawg23
This post was edited on 3/22/16 at 2:14 pm
Posted on 3/22/16 at 2:16 pm to Hammertime
You shoot until the threat is stopped whether that is 1 round or 50 rounds.
Don't worry about saving ammo. You shoot till the threat is stopped or you run dry.
Don't worry about saving ammo. You shoot till the threat is stopped or you run dry.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 2:36 pm to dawg23
The 357sig rounds I shoot sure as hell don't sound or feel "downloaded". It's painfully loud and I haven't even bought the ~1500fps rounds. Just the Speer Lawman 1350fps rounds are insane...and my gun handles them about as well as you can get. I don't think you want to push a 9mm bullet any faster than that out of a gun with a 3.5 inch barrel. I need to find some of the downloaded stuff to practice with...may take care of my yips.
Posted on 3/22/16 at 2:36 pm to theenemy
Well I know that, but I'm not dumping everything I've got when I don't need to. Always good to have more when you need it
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