re: Finally got a handgun

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9 mm Winchester 115= 83% one stop shot (421 shootings)

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Since when did 115 grain become defense ammo? That's cheap target ammo. This is a biased and stupid comparison. Now let's compare 125 grain +P (which is what I carry) and see how close the 9mm is to the .40.

I think 6 will buy me enough time to GTFOutta there.

If not I'm fricked. Oh well. I'm banking on it never happening. If given the opportunity I can use the empty gun as one hell of a head knocker.

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My only complaint with the Shield are the mags. Mine still aren't broken in.

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I have 2 8 round mags and one 7 round, after about 1000 rounds down range split between them, I can now load them without any trouble. But I still use the uplula mag loader just because it's easier.

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I'll check out the study later.

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Be sure to look at the different rounds. They have 9mm +p and +P+ info too. They are come much closer but still do not equal 40 and 45. But with these high pressure +p rounds you have more recoil which is why many dislike the 40 and 45.

I have both a 9 and a 40. My 9mm is a Sig p938 and it is snappy but I love it. And my 40 is a full size HK which has no recoil or snap to it. This is why I don't understand the hate for the 40. It is a very good round.

I've got one as well. For some reason I can not figure out I can't hit shite with it. I have no problem with my other models.

Since this may be wordy, I will be operating under this premise and stating my case:

For the average shooter, 9mm offers numerous advantages over 40 S&W and 45 ACP, despite the fact that it may have a lower percentage of one-shot stops, which is the study's defined "stopping power."

1. I'd like to first mention that your study cited is referenced from a book published in 2006. I can say with a large degree of certainty that firearm ammunition has made many leaps forward in 10 years, namely increased muzzle velocity, jacket-to-core bonding, penetration depth, and expanded diameter of 9mm jacketed hollow points.

2. The difference in percentage between the big 3 that you listed is only around 10%, which is a very small difference in actuality.

They are also not clear on what their definition of a one-shot stop is. Does it mean the threat fell and submitted? Or did it mean the threat instantaneously expired? This is a very important omission, in my opinion, and could potentially account for the 10% difference.

I also checked the charts for the 9mm +P rounds in their study and saw a maximum stopping percentage of 88%. I think you should have mentioned this in the first post since there are lots of +P offerings in 9mm today.

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But I keep hearing that 9 mm is so easy to shoot accurately. That is the big selling point for this caliber. This study had over 2,000 shootings for 9mm alone. Surely, this tremendous accuracy would reflect the one stop stopping ability since 9 mm fans are always boasting it has the same power as a 40 and 45

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I am confused as to what you mean by "accurate" here. My definition of accuracy would be how many rounds hit the target versus how many rounds total were fired. If they only account for bullets that struck the threat, you seem to be describing "precision", which would reference shot placement.

Given these two definitions, I think accuracy is more important than precision in terms of self defense, meaning, I think it's more important to hit the target at all than whether you hit the aorta or the left lung.

I think your case would be stronger if you had said, "this shows that 40 S&W and 45 ACP or more likely to penetrate far enough to strike the spine and disrupt the central nervous system when the threat is shot in the torso." But they also glaringly forget to mention how many of those shots were headshots, which greatly increases the chances of a one-shot stop.

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First, I picked out the Winchester 115gr load because it had the highest one stop percentage of all of the 9 mm bullets they compared. There were 20 different 9 mm bullets used in that study 115-147 grain.

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3. Almost all of the 9mm offerings on that list (standard pressure) have either been phased out or are vastly inferior to other modern offerings in 9mm. I think this has to do with the fact that there have been vastly more offerings in 9mm over 10 years.

I don't see one single mention of the modern Federal HST, which is one of the absolute best hollow points on the market today. They also don't even mention common civilian rounds like the Hornady XTP or Hornady Critical Defense. Again, the study is 10 years old.

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The 40 and 45 are more difficult to control and still has a better one stop shot percentage than the 9mm according to this study.

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4. I can agree with that statement, given the information in the study.

I still hold that the ability to control the recoil of your firearm is more important than a very small difference in effectiveness (no larger than 10% according to the study). This also again shows one of the big advantages of 9mm, namely capacity.

I would rather a 9mm handgun that would allow me to get a few rounds on target quickly. When the adrenaline is going, I would rather not have to fight more recoil and keep my cadence of fire relatively high.

5. (Didn't see this until after I posted):

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But with these high pressure +p rounds you have more recoil which is why many dislike the 40 and 45.

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I still don't feel a +P 9mm load would recoil more than either one of those. If you compare a light-for-caliber offering (155gr 40 S&W) to a heavy-for-caliber offering (147gr +P 9mm), there may actually be a marginal difference in recoil. But if this is the case, I will side with 9mm again for the extra capacity.

6. The study is quite old and I think technology has progressed to a point where the differences would be dramatic with modern ammo.

To conclude:

9mm offers more advantages to the average shooter, despite the fact that there may be a marginal difference in terminal performance or one-shot stops.



Man I love a good debate!

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I've sent two dozen emails today and combined they don't have that many words in them

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The plight of being an engineer...

It's a quarter of a mile from the back of the range to the front, if I run flat out from the back to the target I can draw and put all 10 10mm center mass nearly as fast as I can pull the trigger.

Given that most self defense encounters occur inside of 3ft where aiming becomes pointing and fighting, all of this is a moot point really.