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re: When did the German soldiers of WWII realize they were the 'bad guys'?
Posted on 7/19/17 at 1:01 pm to ChewyDante
Posted on 7/19/17 at 1:01 pm to ChewyDante
Some things that people should keep in mind when they wonder why Hitler declared war on the USA -- here's a list of what the USA had done to help the Allies prior to Hitler declaring war on the USA:
1) Shortly after the Fall of France, the USA provided free 100 Octane aviation fuel to the Royal Air Force. The RAF was greatly aided during the Battle of Britain with this fuel. The Luftwaffe had no access to that powerful fuel. The RAF's fighter force was fully outfitted with 100 Octane fuel for the Battle of Britain and this would have been impossible without the USA's gift.
2) The USA provided free materiel support to both Britain, and, after 22 June 1941, Soviet Russia. The USA's "Lend Lease" shipments to Soviet Russia began ASAP after Hitler invaded Soviet Russia. This aid was extensive even in 1941.
3) The USA provided as much materiel aid for Britain as they could AND the US Navy and US air power were both committed to protecting Allied shipping over the Atlantic Ocean. This US protection included engaging in combat with the Germans.
So, by the time that Hitler declared war on the USA, the USA was already fully engaged in helping the Allies. The US Army was already mobilizing and preparing to enter the war against Hitler beginning in 1940, and that mobilization continued into 1941.
Yes, Hitler miscalculated very often. Hitler didn't expect Britain and France to Declare War after Poland was invaded in 1939. Hitler expected Britain to make peace after France fell. Hitler had no idea that the Soviet Union could generate such military might and force projection. Hitler didn't think that the USA's industry and armed forces would be powerful enough to help defeat Germany.
So it is true to say that Hitler declaring war on the USA was a miscalculation BUT it is important to understand the question in its full context, and that context is that the USA was already waging an undeclared war on Germany for many months by the time Hitler declared war on the USA in December 1941.
The USA was NOT going to stop waging that undeclared war against Germany whether Hitler declared war or not.
And once the US Army was ready to fight on foreign shores against the Germans, the USA would have declared war on Germany, probably shortly before the North African Operation Torch landings in November, 1942.
. . . all in my own humble opinion, of course.
1) Shortly after the Fall of France, the USA provided free 100 Octane aviation fuel to the Royal Air Force. The RAF was greatly aided during the Battle of Britain with this fuel. The Luftwaffe had no access to that powerful fuel. The RAF's fighter force was fully outfitted with 100 Octane fuel for the Battle of Britain and this would have been impossible without the USA's gift.
2) The USA provided free materiel support to both Britain, and, after 22 June 1941, Soviet Russia. The USA's "Lend Lease" shipments to Soviet Russia began ASAP after Hitler invaded Soviet Russia. This aid was extensive even in 1941.
3) The USA provided as much materiel aid for Britain as they could AND the US Navy and US air power were both committed to protecting Allied shipping over the Atlantic Ocean. This US protection included engaging in combat with the Germans.
So, by the time that Hitler declared war on the USA, the USA was already fully engaged in helping the Allies. The US Army was already mobilizing and preparing to enter the war against Hitler beginning in 1940, and that mobilization continued into 1941.
Yes, Hitler miscalculated very often. Hitler didn't expect Britain and France to Declare War after Poland was invaded in 1939. Hitler expected Britain to make peace after France fell. Hitler had no idea that the Soviet Union could generate such military might and force projection. Hitler didn't think that the USA's industry and armed forces would be powerful enough to help defeat Germany.
So it is true to say that Hitler declaring war on the USA was a miscalculation BUT it is important to understand the question in its full context, and that context is that the USA was already waging an undeclared war on Germany for many months by the time Hitler declared war on the USA in December 1941.
The USA was NOT going to stop waging that undeclared war against Germany whether Hitler declared war or not.
And once the US Army was ready to fight on foreign shores against the Germans, the USA would have declared war on Germany, probably shortly before the North African Operation Torch landings in November, 1942.
. . . all in my own humble opinion, of course.
This post was edited on 7/19/17 at 1:05 pm
1
Posted on 7/19/17 at 1:14 pm to LCA131
Guess you didn't read about all the riots, the mutinies, the starvation, and the civil wars that broke out at the end of the war in Germany.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 1:21 pm to prplhze2000
Guess you didn't read the meaning of the word implosion.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 1:29 pm to WiredBobcat
quote:
At some point during the war, the average soldier probably heard rumors or knew about the mass killing of Jews in their concentration camps.
The soldiers already knew what was happening. The regular army divisions had attachments of volunteer soldiers who were tasked with killing Jews and other ethnic minorities. The concentration camps were hidden, but those were not the only places were German soldiers were killing people.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 1:32 pm to Champagne
Agree with all of that. I don't contend that Hitler's declaration wasn't rational, sensible, or even justified, I simply think declaring war on the United States and removing all doubt didn't offer you enough advantage over waiting and hoping that the U.S. antiwar movement kept the U.S. out. Getting a jump on attacking U.S. shipping paled in comparison to the negatives of U.S. entry.
Again, relating back to WWI, Hitler saw how the U.S. entered WWI and FDR's rhetoric was so rabidly anti-German and pro-British, that it was plain for all to see where FDR stood. It looked like Wilson and WWI all over again.
Hitler's speech on the declaration of war on the United States is easily found online and lays out a highly rational justification. That said, it wasn't a slam dunk that the United States would enter in Europe without heavy resistance internally and, as said, starting hostilities with the U.S. early really didn't offer Germany any great advantages. I think Hitler privately hoped it would encourage Japan to join the fight against the Soviets though that's not a wise thing to bank on without confirmation.
Again, relating back to WWI, Hitler saw how the U.S. entered WWI and FDR's rhetoric was so rabidly anti-German and pro-British, that it was plain for all to see where FDR stood. It looked like Wilson and WWI all over again.
Hitler's speech on the declaration of war on the United States is easily found online and lays out a highly rational justification. That said, it wasn't a slam dunk that the United States would enter in Europe without heavy resistance internally and, as said, starting hostilities with the U.S. early really didn't offer Germany any great advantages. I think Hitler privately hoped it would encourage Japan to join the fight against the Soviets though that's not a wise thing to bank on without confirmation.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 1:41 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Depends on what you're talking about. Political dissent and shirking the normal duties of a soldier were harshly punished. But extensive research has never uncovered any evidence of punishment for refusal to participate in atrocities. Those who were not up to it-and there were some-were simply assigned other duties. The killing squads were manned by willing participants.
Maybe I was just assuming this for some reason, but I thought there were some records of nazi soldiers who were "made examples of". Either way, I think more and more nazi soldiers questioned Hitler's goals the longer the war went on. But to answer the question the thread is asking, I don't know if there was ever a specific time when something happened to where all of a sudden all of the soldiers realized they were "bad guys".
Some might have thought it from the beginning, some early on in the war, some later on... Some maybe even after the war... And then those who might have never considered themselves a "bad guy".
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:03 pm to Undertow
quote:
When did the German soldiers of WWII realize they were the 'bad guys'?
I know the average soldier was probably a normal guy just fighting for his country and not necessarily bad but at what point did the rank and file realize that their leaders were evil?
They saw the anti-Jewish discriminatory laws, Kristallnacht, forced relocation of Jews, vandalism of Jewish businesses and property and of course heard their fuhrer every day spewing the hateful bigotry and rhetoric that he did. Every German, soldier or not, realized LONG before the war started that he and his regime were evil. They either supported it out of fear, opposed it and risked death, or they were just as evil as he was. Outside Germany, people in the West knew he was evil, but for years they were OK with it because they saw him as a buffer against communism. They were "bad guys", too.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:20 pm to Nuts4LSU
quote:
They saw the anti-Jewish discriminatory laws, Kristallnacht, forced relocation of Jews, vandalism of Jewish businesses and property and of course heard their fuhrer every day spewing the hateful bigotry and rhetoric that he did. Every German, soldier or not, realized LONG before the war started that he and his regime were evil.
Just like every American was aware of the institution of slavery? Or discriminatory laws against blacks? Race riots and lynchings? Did every American recognize that he and his government was evil? Do you contend this as well?
Anti-Semitism and discrimination are not on par with physical liquidation. And that Hitler recognized this as well is made all too evident that he never made public mention of such policies. Racism and discriminatory laws were common in Europe AND the United States in that day and age. To argue that the entire German population was "evil" on account that race laws were passed and Jews were encouraged to emigrate out of Germany is pretty asinine.
quote:
Outside Germany, people in the West knew he was evil,
This is extremely revisionist and simplistic.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:26 pm to Nuts4LSU
Haavara agreement is about the only real official solution to getting rid of jews. It should be noted that Britain put a stop to it. There was even talks to buy Madagascar and ship them there.
https://youtu.be/AaZldOUC-q8
Germany was fighting Bolsheviks. They are the people that threaten every country's heritage to put in place their globalist values.
https://youtu.be/AaZldOUC-q8
Germany was fighting Bolsheviks. They are the people that threaten every country's heritage to put in place their globalist values.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:33 pm to TigerFanInSouthland
quote:Let's not forget that a year into the German/Soviet war, Stalin considered sending a peace mission to the Nazis.
Let's also not forget that Hitler, later on in the war, asked us to join his side against the Russians.
That's one of the charges against Beria in his trial in '53.
War makes strange-bedfellows.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 2:48 pm to OweO
German soldiers and SS troops were often subject to harsh discipline, but not for refusing to participate in atrocities. There were two reasons. The leadership recognized that some men just weren't up to the task. And, any punishment would have raised legal questions about what they were being punished for. Those who couldnt carry out the task were given other duties. They were always in the minority. Most carried out their orders.
There was even the case of a humane SS officer who was appalled at what he saw, and tried to stop it through official channels. Nothing happened to him except being reassigned.
Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen is a good place to start on the subject. The idea that Nazis were punished for not carrying out massacres stems from a Reagan speech when he laid a wreath at what turned out to be an SS cemetary. He claimed these were men who had been executed as resisters, but it never happened.
There was even the case of a humane SS officer who was appalled at what he saw, and tried to stop it through official channels. Nothing happened to him except being reassigned.
Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen is a good place to start on the subject. The idea that Nazis were punished for not carrying out massacres stems from a Reagan speech when he laid a wreath at what turned out to be an SS cemetary. He claimed these were men who had been executed as resisters, but it never happened.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 3:28 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
Just like every American was aware of the institution of slavery? Or discriminatory laws against blacks? Race riots and lynchings? Did every American recognize that he and his government was evil? Do you contend this as well?
"He" referred to the Fuhrer, not every German. Every German knew Hitler was evil, not that he, the "every German", was evil. Some Germans failed to act because of fear. That wasn't evil. But some actively and voluntarily supported the regime. That was. And yes, every American knew about slavery, and either opposed it (eventually winning a war to get rid of it), or supported it for economic reasons or was indifferent to it because it didn't affect them. The latter two groups absolutely were "bad guys".
quote:
Jews were encouraged to emigrate out of Germany
Oh, FFS, sugar-coat much? "Encouraged to emigrate"? Are you fricking kidding? Stormtroopers bursting into their houses, beating them the frick up, forcing them out into the streets with nothing but a suitcase (if they were lucky) in plain view of anybody walking by is a hell of a lot more than "encouraging" them to "emigrate".
quote:
Racism and discriminatory laws were common in Europe AND the United States in that day and age.
Yes, but roaming the streets and knocking out the windows of every Jewish business or property, physically beating people to a pulp on a daily basis, confiscating their property, locking them into ghettos, etc. were NOT common at that time, as if being "common" was any justification anyway. Murder has been "common" at many points in history depending on your definition, but it's always been evil and murderers have always been "bad guys".
quote:
This is extremely revisionist and simplistic.
bullshite. The revisionists are the ones who tried to sugar-coat and justify their pre-war actions afterward. As long as Hitler wasn't a threat to conquer the West, nobody gave two shits what he did to Jews, gypsies, political dissidents, etc. When he became a threat, and only when he became a threat, did they take action. Afterward, they have made every bullshite excuse imaginable for themselves and the German people for letting him do what he did.
This post was edited on 7/19/17 at 3:30 pm
Posted on 7/19/17 at 3:54 pm to Nuts4LSU
quote:
Every German knew Hitler was evil, not that he, the "every German", was evil.
Fair enough. Still a false premise.
quote:
The latter two groups absolutely were "bad guys".
And their government too, right? I mean, that's what you said. The American government that supported such policies was evil then according to your logic. Just want to establish your consistency here. And not just for slavery, but for post-slavery discriminatory laws, as you laid out was enough to make the Germans recognize "evil."
quote:
Oh, FFS, sugar-coat much? "Encouraged to emigrate"? Are you fricking kidding? Stormtroopers bursting into their houses, beating them the frick up, forcing them out into the streets with nothing but a suitcase (if they were lucky) in plain view of anybody walking by is a hell of a lot more than "encouraging" them to "emigrate".
This isn't what was taking place in Germany. Jews were discriminated against with laws that effectively made life in Germany impossible (which is what you specifically referenced as evil). This was official German policy that was made public to the population. So this is what they were quite aware of. Don't change your argument.
quote:
Yes, but roaming the streets and knocking out the windows of every Jewish business or property, physically beating people to a pulp on a daily basis, confiscating their property, locking them into ghettos, etc. were NOT common at that time,
Once again, not what you said earlier and not an accurate portrayal of state actions against the Jews in Germany. You are now making reference to things that were occurring after the war broke out in foreign occupied lands. And you seem to want to portray life in Germany as if it was Kristallnacht 24/7, which is an absolutely false portrayal.
quote:
Murder has been "common" at many points in history depending on your definition, but it's always been evil and murderers have always been "bad guys".
We weren't talking murder, we were talking about the things you SPECIFICALLY referenced as evil and that must illustrate to the German people that their regime was evil. That was discriminatory laws. So I simply inquired if you extended that logic to all other peoples with discriminatory laws or if you hold the Germans of that period to an arbitrary standard.
quote:
As long as Hitler wasn't a threat to conquer the West, nobody gave two shits what he did to Jews, gypsies, political dissidents, etc. When he became a threat, and only when he became a threat, did they take action
Explain the timeline for us and teach us about what foreign policy decisions ultimately drove British and French foreign policy. I'd like to know what atrocities you think the Germans were committing prior to British declarations of war as well. But you are right in one respect, the war had nothing to do with moral concerns whatsoever. The war in the West was over the same traditional causes of war as before.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 4:38 pm to ChewyDante
Yes, I agree that it was a miscalculation.
But what if Hitler DIDN'T declare war on the USA in December 1941? FDR would have accelerated his economic aid to Britain and Soviet Russia. FDR would have intensified the US aero-naval war against the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe.
And when a German ship or plane managed to sink a US Navy destroyer? What then? HITLER'S GERMANY SINKS US NAVAL VESSEL IN UNPROVOKED SNEAK ATTACK. 99 US SAILORS LOST AT SEA. Imagine the outrage -- Germany's sneak attack on the USA.
OR in the alternative, the USA builds up its amphibious forces and capabilities all throughout 1942 AT PEACE with Germany while preparing for war as fast as possible. THEN the USA declares war on Germany the very day that the US armed forces launches an amphibious attack on German-held territory in late 1942 or early 1943.
I agree that it was a miscalculation. But, FDR was helping the Allies with all his might. One way or the other, the US Navy was going to manage to get attacked by a German plane or ship, which would provide the USA with a reason to declare war.
So it was a miscalculation, I just don't know how huge it was, given that FDR was going to find a way to get the USA in the war against Germany NLT the end of 1942.
Once Hitler attacked Stalin, the American Left Wing over night changed its position from one of strict neutrality and non-intervention into favoring war against Hitler. That simplified FDR's task immensely, once he had the left wing of his base on his side WRT war with Hitler. During the existence of the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the American Left would never consent to war against Hitler.
But what if Hitler DIDN'T declare war on the USA in December 1941? FDR would have accelerated his economic aid to Britain and Soviet Russia. FDR would have intensified the US aero-naval war against the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe.
And when a German ship or plane managed to sink a US Navy destroyer? What then? HITLER'S GERMANY SINKS US NAVAL VESSEL IN UNPROVOKED SNEAK ATTACK. 99 US SAILORS LOST AT SEA. Imagine the outrage -- Germany's sneak attack on the USA.
OR in the alternative, the USA builds up its amphibious forces and capabilities all throughout 1942 AT PEACE with Germany while preparing for war as fast as possible. THEN the USA declares war on Germany the very day that the US armed forces launches an amphibious attack on German-held territory in late 1942 or early 1943.
I agree that it was a miscalculation. But, FDR was helping the Allies with all his might. One way or the other, the US Navy was going to manage to get attacked by a German plane or ship, which would provide the USA with a reason to declare war.
So it was a miscalculation, I just don't know how huge it was, given that FDR was going to find a way to get the USA in the war against Germany NLT the end of 1942.
Once Hitler attacked Stalin, the American Left Wing over night changed its position from one of strict neutrality and non-intervention into favoring war against Hitler. That simplified FDR's task immensely, once he had the left wing of his base on his side WRT war with Hitler. During the existence of the Nazi-Soviet Pact, the American Left would never consent to war against Hitler.
This post was edited on 7/19/17 at 4:51 pm
Posted on 7/19/17 at 5:35 pm to Cooter Davenport
quote:
I guess it's pointless to dissuade someone from a belief since at that point we are not talking about logic any longer
First thanks jumping to the conclusion that I can't be dissuaded from a certain point of view. If you can provide any information that proves what I think is wrong then I'm smart enough to re-evaluate my position on it.
Here's some facts that back up why I believe what I believe.
quote:
You do realize that the extermination process didn't begin in earnest until late in the war, right?
Wrong. The extermination camps may not have been set up but the systematic killing of populations the Nazi regime felt were undesirable began early in the war. Babi Yar (1941 - over 33,000), Kamianets-Podilskyi (1941 - over 23,000), Drobystsky Yar (1941 - over 15,000), Nikolaev (1941 - over 35,000). The list goes on and on.
quote:
And that even though we had broken their code, WE didn't know about it until we came upon the camps?
Wrong. We might not have known the extent but the Allied governments had an idea that mass murder was happening. The Allied nations issued a joint declaration on December 17, 1942 condemning them. Declaration Wikipedia. On January 10, 1944 the following memo regarding the planned deportation and liquidation of 8,000 Jews from Rome was hand-delivered to the White House OSS Memo
quote:
They didn't have cell phones, or phones at all in the field for that matter, or the internet, or Facebook, or Alex Jones on the radio.
Obviously they didn't have these things.....they had mail. Here's a link to an pdf article describing research done on soldiers' letters home The Holocaust in Letters Home.
Here's an excerpt from a July, 1942 letter written by Reserve Major in Brest:
"In Bereza—Katuska, where I stopped at noon, they had just shot 1300 Jews the day before. They were taken to a pit outside the city, then men, women and children had to take off all their clothes and were finished by shots to the neck. The clothes were disinfected and then reused. I am convinced, if the war lasts longer, it will become necessary to make sausages out of the Jews and feed them to the Russian prisoners of war or the trained Jewish workers."
Here's one from a Lance Corporal in Romania from July 1941:
"Here the Jewish issue is solved somewhat differently. The Romanians drove all the Jews together and shot them dead regardless of whether they were men, women or children. At the beginning it was the other way round."
Here's one from a soldier on his way to the front in December 1942:
"Up here you see many prison camps assigned to do construction work and other things. There are Jews coming here, that is to say, to Auschwitz, seven or eight thousand a week who die a “hero’s death” before long. You see, it’s quite good to get around a great deal."
quote:
They were sleeping in mud, covered in lice, shivering without winter coats, had no contact with the outside world,
They weren't in action 24/7. That's not how combat works. They were pulled off for rest, refit, and training. Men went on furlough, soldiers transferred in and out of units, and entire units were moved to different parts of the front. And they saw things and heard things as the quotes above show.
quote:
but yet you think they knew about an operation being conducted in secret by the party (they were Wehrmacht and the death camps were SS - and a special division within the SS at that)
Here's a link to a picture (probably NSFW) of a man on the edge of an execution pit about to be shot by an SS man or Auxiliary. There are at least 12 Wehrmacht soldiers watching the execution.
NSFW
So yeah, I believe that a lot of regular Wehrmacht soldiers had some inkling of what was going on.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 5:54 pm to SadSouthernBuck
There are many many interviews with German Army troops after the war, a lot on the AMC's extensive coverage of WWII. The majority seem to fall in 3 groups: " I was following orders"; Nazi anti Jewish propaganda was so extensive for so long that I came to believe Jews were the enemy of the State; and "I personally never killed any Jews". Last nite's show about Stalin & Russia in WWII played several interviews, 2 with former SS men, and they all spoke matter of factually bout the Holocaust.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 6:14 pm to Keltic Tiger
quote:
former SS men
Yeah exactly. Not regular army. The SS was the Party's army and I bet a lot of them DID hear rumors or know for a fact of elements of the final solution. But the vast, vast, vast majority of German soldiers were wermacht. Regular army. Comanded by an apolitical Prussian officer corps multiple generations deep and they had nothing to do with holocaustic activities and were intentionally separated from those operations.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 6:19 pm to Undertow
First of all I believe Himler and not Hitler was the architect of the Holocaust and Mass murder of entire groups of people. I believe Hitler knew things were going on but kinda turned a blind eye to it and focused on the war.
Secondly, were the Marines in the Pacific that refused to take any japanese prisoners "bad guys"? Was it okay to pull the gold teeth from their mouths after they shot them?
No they weren't. You know why? Because war is hell and it brings out the very worse in mankind.
There were no good guys and bad guys in WW2 (besides the SS Einstatsgrupen and definitely the Japanese in China). The entire world was at war. Bad stuff was going to happen, perpetrated by both sides.
That being said, I'm glad the USA won.
Secondly, were the Marines in the Pacific that refused to take any japanese prisoners "bad guys"? Was it okay to pull the gold teeth from their mouths after they shot them?
No they weren't. You know why? Because war is hell and it brings out the very worse in mankind.
There were no good guys and bad guys in WW2 (besides the SS Einstatsgrupen and definitely the Japanese in China). The entire world was at war. Bad stuff was going to happen, perpetrated by both sides.
That being said, I'm glad the USA won.
Posted on 7/19/17 at 6:20 pm to ChewyDante
quote:
Hitler misjudged the difficulties FDR would have getting the U.S. into the European conflict.
Not JUST that. Hitler fundamentally didn't understand what the United States WAS. He didn't know any Americans, hadn't been there, didn't know anyone who had, didn't know anything about it, and didn't care. He seriously thought of America as just like a quasi-civilized, low-population frontier hinterland where people lived in tents. MAJOR bias colored his thinking. Historians now think he didn't really grasp the amount of material support the US was already providing, much less its ability. So not only did he not think FDR could rally the country to war, he didn't think it would matter. You may think "that's dumb." YEAH. It was.
This post was edited on 7/19/17 at 6:21 pm
Posted on 7/19/17 at 6:27 pm to Cooter Davenport
quote:
But the vast, vast, vast majority of German soldiers were wermacht
Not trying to be too nit picky but this is a very common misconception. The Werhmacht was the German military. It included everything, the army, Navy, air Force, and the SS. The regular German army was called the Heer. I know not as cool sounding lol. But truth.
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