re: Scales tipped against college?

Change plumbers with welders, and you've got it. Also, you need some type of degree to be an operator.

AP classes in high school are harder than most college classes. College has been gradually dumbed down to a 10th or 11th grade level. I know two people from HS that went to LSU, but were in remedial math classes. That's like 5th grade math.

Your freshman and sophomore years are basically high school extended. Nothing new is learned in 95% of programs during that time if you had a good foundation in high school.

From a purely economic utilitarian viewpoint, your brother is likely correct. Learning a trade is a terrific way to maximize economic returns. However, there are life experiences he completely missed by not attending a university. It is a trade off that works for him.

A hard working and ambitious HS graduate can make very good money in trades. I have a friend who is an electrician who owns his company. He has 22 core guys employed right now but has so much work that they struggle to keep up. He is having a lot of trouble hiring quality people to keep up. He is at the point where he is willing to hire people with zero electrical experience as long as they are trainable and reliable. His last two hires lasted one week (never showed up after first week. My friend found out he was jailed) and the other guy lasted a month. He was an hour late every day due to drinking problem. These were guys with experience that he started at $24 an hour and were guaranteed at least 10 hours of OT at time and a half per week. He is now offering $20 an hour to anyone who is willing to learn the ropes. He has a 3rd year 24 year old who was a fry cook when he hired him. Kid showed a tremendous work ethic and proficiency to learn and is now making $30 an hour and leading a 3 man crew. With 10-15 hours of OT he is making $70-80k a year.

The trade jobs are there to make a good living for someone without a college degree. Just hard to find the people willing to do what it takes to take advantage of the opportunity.

How about discussing complex topics with other intelligent people? Some of the best learning in college happens outside of class hanging around in the dorms or over dinner in the cafe. Meeting people from different background and being exposed to new and different thinking.

Of course, the social side of going to parties and making new friends serves well throughout life as well.

When the job you get doesn't cover the expense of your degree in your first year of working.

Bring back the technical skills in high school. My mom graduated high school and was a draftsman. We will always need blue collar workers.

in the first year?!

How ridiculous of a statement.

Yes, ole boy. I'm with Lynxcat. We all need to go to college. We don't need to know plumbing or shop or any of that. That's what Mexicans are for!

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don't believe the two camps are completely separate, however, most on this board are likely to focus on the economic utility side whilst forgetting about the social utility component of the equation.

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Fully, 100% agree. Most people treat college a paper to get a job and make money. While that is very important, the secondary and less tangible learnings you receive are invaluable.

A few examples:
-intellectual discussions with other people in different majors. Their view points
- humanities subjects which are enlightening (philosophy, art history, etc)
- politics
- social norms and handling yourself in college

I could have done my engineering degree at GA tech but elected to do it at UVA to broaden my study. I wanted a well rounded approach. And it was worth every penny

Yes, for profit universities are terrible and largely scams.

Most undergraduate degrees except nursing and engineering are generally worthless. Pretty much either have to major in nursing/engineering or go to grad school, or get bachelors and make 35k a year