re: How were German armored divisions so much more elite than their US counterparts

German tanks like the Tiger and King Tiger were considered "heavy tanks" slow and well armored, with a 88mm gun

the Panther was a medium tank , 75mm gun and moderate armow, but faster

the early sherman tanks were lightly armored with 50mm guns, but were fast, maneuverable, and cheap to produce. Later versions had larger guns

Thought they all had 75s

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If you are talking about WWII, the US was not even close to a world power. Britain and France viewed the US as a lot of bodies to get mowed down because in their eyes that is all we were. They also knew we could mass produce the shite out of machinery and equipment because we were the only country in the war not being bombed into the Stone Ages.

All in all Germany only lost the war because of her own stupidity. They were far superior in every way.

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This statement is patently untrue. Maybe somewhat accurate for WWI, but certainly not for WWII.

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studied Light Cavalry tactics of Nathan Bedford Forrest




When I was a kid growing up in West Tennessee, it wasn't unusual to hear some of the elderly folks remark along the lines of, "Erwin was such a nice young man, it's a shame he turned out like he did."


Lots of stories from people who had hosted him in their homes in the early 30s as he traveled the area.

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I am so glad some of you smarter/better read fellows followed up on this.

For a split second, I'll admit to thinking that General Nathan Bedford Forrest must have been nicknamed Erwin, and lived up until the 1930's in his home country of Tennessee. Whew.

First off, glad to be back. I saw this thread the other day and have been dying to post.

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Went to see Fury and they portray the German tiger tank as nearly impenetrable by US tanks.

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Have yet to go see this (hoping to have time to fix that this weekend). But what what I can tell it looks like in the movie they are using a M4A3E8 (AKA "Easy Eight"). This was a late war version of the workhorse of the Allies armored formations, the M4 Sherman. This version of the Sherman was still at a disadvantage from a armor and firepower standpoint to the Tiger. However, in the key areas of maneuverability and range, the Easy Eight was the superior tank. Couple these advantages for the Easy Eight with the fact that at this stage of the war American crews had improved tank killing munitions available like the HVAP (High Velocity Armor Piercing) and you can see that it was actually American Armor that usually came out on top of tank vs Tank confrontation in the later stages of the war. But even then it was the norm for Sherman crews to avoid head on head fights with German panzers. I'll explain why later on in this post.

This American armor advantage late in the war (when the movie takes place from what I understand) had not been the case earlier in the war, especially during the Normandy campaign when the Germans had the double advantages of (1) being able to defend from ample and excellent ambush locations in the French bocage that dotted the Normandy landscape and (2) having the best armored formations in the world at the time manning those defenses, namely the 1st SS, 2nd SS, 12th SS, and Panzer Lher divisions. But by the end of the Normandy campaign these formations had been shattered and would require extensive rearming back in Germany before they were ready to reenter the fray. But while the Germans could replace tanks, what they could not replace was experienced crews. Thus by the later part of 1944, the German advantage in armor was all but gone.

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How did we get so far behind?

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Well if you look at just the Sherman and compare it to the Panther & Tiger, you'd think we fell way back. But that's not the whole picture though. For starters, the American thinking when it came to armored warfare was different from that of the Germans in that we did not want our tanks fighting other tanks, in fact they were to avoid getting bogged down trying to slug it out with other tanks. Instead tanks were to exploit breakthroughs of an enemy line and fan out in their rear area doing things like destroying supply dumps, artillery positions, command & control points, and generally spreading fear and panic in their rear area. With that thought in mind we opted for a fast tank with excellent maneuverability. We also had to consider the fact that every tank we made had to get to Europe. Had we opted for a huge American version of the Tiger, then the number of tanks we send overseas would have been far lower than what we were able to achieve with the Sherman. So since the American line of thinking was not to build a tank to kill other tanks, how did we intend to deal with German tanks? Simple, we opted for tank destroyers. The Americna thinking was that while Shermans were fanning out in German rear areas, vehicles like the M10 and lateer on the M18 and finally the M36 would deal with the Panthers and Tigers. So see, it's not really fair to try to compare the Sherman, even the Easy Eight, to a Panther or Tiger because they were designed to do one thing while the German tanks were designed to do another. It was for this reason that usually American tank formations would by bypass German Panzer formations and instead call up Tank destroyer battalions to deal with them.

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How big was the gap?

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It varied. When American armored forced first encountered German panzers in North Africa the Sherman and even the M3 Grant both were able to hold their own against Pz III's and IV's. Then as the Germans brought the Panther & Tiger into service the advantage swung to them. Then as the Germans began suffering losses they could not make good and Americans introduced improved TD's and improved versions of the Sherman, the advantage swung back to the the Americans.

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Ace Midnight

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Not at all. You did good.

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They produced quality, we produced quantity. Quantity won out.

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They focused on quality to a fault. While the Panther and Tiger were great tanks for the most part, one huge problem with them was the fact they were actually over-engineered to the point of being overly complicated and hard to repair and maintain.

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They focused on quality to a fault. While the Panther and Tiger were great tanks for the most part, one huge problem with them was the fact they were actually over-engineered to the point of being overly complicated and hard to repair and maintain.

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That Maybach engine though - it inspired big block makers for decades - although it was more common back then, it was/is relatively unusual for machines to rise to a work of art - but the Germans tended to do that more than anyone - Hindenberg, Bismarck, their late war tanks, powered by the marvelous plant.

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Maybach engine

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Too bad it was coupled up to a transmission with reliability issues that even Chrysler would find appalling.