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Posted on 6/24/14 at 5:28 pm to cokebottleag
i checked out two pages and was surprised to read nothing on charter schools.
Louisiana could use a lot more charter schools. Keeping the government out of the classroom and giving good teachers autonomy goes such a long way, and the many countries that have surpassed us in the field of education usually put a strong focus on charter schools.
And not to sound redundant, but yes, the teacher's unions need to die
Louisiana could use a lot more charter schools. Keeping the government out of the classroom and giving good teachers autonomy goes such a long way, and the many countries that have surpassed us in the field of education usually put a strong focus on charter schools.
And not to sound redundant, but yes, the teacher's unions need to die
Posted on 6/24/14 at 5:33 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
You're talking about individualizing curricula for each individual student. That just isn't possible with the current teacher to student ratios. The only place in public education where this is done is special education. Special-education depending on the school system will have two teachers assigned to just a few students. There's no way we can do that with anything close to the current levels of funding.
I'm aware of how special education works. I see no reason why teacher teams can't meet periodically throughout the year to establish and monitor student progress as part of their PLC meetings. Things are already done in a similar fashion for RTI and other programs.
quote:
on the consultants: what is this data that the consultants will evaluate each student on? The only way I know of to produce data on what students know, is to test them on their knowledge. Unless you're talking about giving them evaluations in paragraph format, with just general points about how well they believe each student is learning, but I don't see how that would be useful to anyone when comparing that student against others.
The consultants write a narrative evaluating the student's product against the standards (and maybe the student's IEP as well). Student performance can still be scored numerically in order to assemble data.
One of the things that is killing education is the reliance on irrelevant standardized data.
This post was edited on 6/24/14 at 5:35 pm
Posted on 6/24/14 at 5:40 pm to shutterspeed
IEPs do not just involve meeting a few times a year. You're talking about having the teachers teach 30 different lessons in one classroom.
Let me make sure I understand the full extent of what you're saying would be better than standardized testing.
Have each teacher develop and execute separate lesson plans for each student in their classroom. Then the teacher grades each child's work individually on how they are progressing with their individual lesson plan. All of that data then goes to a committee of consultants who somehow are supposed to rate that student against the 30 million other students each with their own individual lesson plan. Did I get that right?
Let me make sure I understand the full extent of what you're saying would be better than standardized testing.
Have each teacher develop and execute separate lesson plans for each student in their classroom. Then the teacher grades each child's work individually on how they are progressing with their individual lesson plan. All of that data then goes to a committee of consultants who somehow are supposed to rate that student against the 30 million other students each with their own individual lesson plan. Did I get that right?
Posted on 6/24/14 at 5:56 pm to mailman
Like with most things these days, they need to reintroduce failure to the system. And not just individual kids.
Kids need to fail. Schools need to fail. Communities need to fail. We are the only species on this rock that has the ignorant notion that the strongest of our species should be hampered by the weak.
There has to be a significant punishment to kill stop traits in the population. More federal money, more attention, more public assistance, more public outcry for help for a struggling school, etc, do not rectify the situation. They simply divert resources away from more deserving schools, kids, and communities. There have to be negative consequences for negative performance.
Kids need to fail. Schools need to fail. Communities need to fail. We are the only species on this rock that has the ignorant notion that the strongest of our species should be hampered by the weak.
There has to be a significant punishment to kill stop traits in the population. More federal money, more attention, more public assistance, more public outcry for help for a struggling school, etc, do not rectify the situation. They simply divert resources away from more deserving schools, kids, and communities. There have to be negative consequences for negative performance.
Posted on 6/24/14 at 5:59 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
IEPs do not just involve meeting a few times a year. You're talking about having the teachers teach 30 different lessons in one classroom.
First of all, I said it would be a modified, streamlined process. Don't think IEP, in the literal SPED sense, but a process that individualizes education for each student. And don't confuse IEPs with lesson plans and differentiated instruction. The IEP would chart a student's strengths, weaknesses, progress, and goals. It could be as simple as indicating a reading deficiency established by classroom testing/data along with a goal to improve reading skills by .5 or 1 grade level the next year.
quote:
Have each teacher develop and execute separate lesson plans for each student in their classroom.[quote]
I don't know where you think I've said this. While differentiated instruction should be a part of every teacher's lesson plans, the teacher conducts instruction as usual. The difference is only in moving students toward their individual goals, which is what we already do and what sound , differentiated instruction should accomplish anyway.
Then the teacher grades each child's work individually on how they are progressing with their individual lesson plan. All of that data then goes to a committee of consultants who somehow are supposed to rate that student against the 30 million other students each with their own individual lesson plan. Did I get that right?
Where do you get 30 million students from? In what state do you live? You may or may not be aware of this, but states have already done this and continue to do this during the normal state test process. Past state tests required states to hire consultants to grade student compositions as well as the new PARCC tests. I'm just expanding on the idea.
You seem critical of new ideas in many ways but offer few of your own. You can support beating a dead educational horse if you like or modeling practices based on schools who beat the dead horse the best. However, you will never convince me that the best way to grow and assess a student's academic skills is by bubbling A, B, C, or D on a scantron test. Students in schools everywhere are progressing through grades never having to put a single thing to paper. But, oh, we've got that standardized data! And they marked the right bubble on a form test! And that's all that counts, right? Not real world application of educational skills.
Education reform is going to take some re-imagination. No one said it would be easy. I believe it can be done, however.
This post was edited on 6/24/14 at 6:02 pm
Posted on 6/24/14 at 6:20 pm to shutterspeed
I have no problem with new ideas, that doesn't mean that I think
Ideas should not be criticized and challenged. And just because it's new or different does not mean it is necessarily better than the old.
Admittedly my information about the workings of the education system is largely secondhand. You seem to have a much more intricate knowledge of specific terms and current practices. Kudos for that. I still have to disagree as far as how feasible what you're suggesting is in the economic realities that we live in.
I completely disagree with the idea that standardized testing is one of the major problems with schools today. Standardized tests are used in every country that is currently doing better than we are at education.
From what I have seen and read and heard the main problem with the US education system is the students and parents either not prioritizing education or valuing what is given freely. No individualized education plan of any kind is going to make little Jimmy keep up with his peers if he has no desire to put in the effort and his parents don't either.
Ideas should not be criticized and challenged. And just because it's new or different does not mean it is necessarily better than the old.
Admittedly my information about the workings of the education system is largely secondhand. You seem to have a much more intricate knowledge of specific terms and current practices. Kudos for that. I still have to disagree as far as how feasible what you're suggesting is in the economic realities that we live in.
I completely disagree with the idea that standardized testing is one of the major problems with schools today. Standardized tests are used in every country that is currently doing better than we are at education.
From what I have seen and read and heard the main problem with the US education system is the students and parents either not prioritizing education or valuing what is given freely. No individualized education plan of any kind is going to make little Jimmy keep up with his peers if he has no desire to put in the effort and his parents don't either.
Posted on 6/24/14 at 6:46 pm to cokebottleag
Public education needs to go back to the era of the 1950's to early sixties. In those days there were neighborhood schools. Kids were taught and they learned in school. I might be banned for speaking my mind, but integration caused the demise of integration. The cultures of the different races are a big divide. Integration was supposed to uplift a lower group. The only thing that integration did was bring down the upper group down to the standards and behavior of the lower group. Public education in the South really sucks. You have teachers in the classroom who can barely read on a ninth grade level. I'm all for private schools and back to the era of one race schools. I'm sure I'll be called names from some posters. I'm not a racist but a guy who speaks his mind about what is going on. Many probably agree with me but are too afraid to speak openly about how they really feel.
Posted on 6/24/14 at 7:36 pm to avondale88
quote:
I'm all for private schools and back to the era of one race schools.
It probably shouldn't, but it always makes me sad when I'm reminded that there are people like you in the world.
ETA: This board is ridiculously obsessed with race.
This post was edited on 6/24/14 at 7:42 pm
Posted on 6/24/14 at 7:42 pm to avondale88
quote:
Public education needs to go back to the era of the 1950's to early sixties. In those days there were neighborhood schools. Kids were taught and they learned in school. I might be banned for speaking my mind, but integration caused the demise of integration. The cultures of the different races are a big divide. Integration was supposed to uplift a lower group. The only thing that integration did was bring down the upper group down to the standards and behavior of the lower group. Public education in the South really sucks. You have teachers in the classroom who can barely read on a ninth grade level. I'm all for private schools and back to the era of one race schools. I'm sure I'll be called names from some posters. I'm not a racist but a guy who speaks his mind about what is going on. Many probably agree with me but are too afraid to speak openly about how they really feel.
Whole lot of bullshite in your comment.
To answer the OP:
As someone who worked in education, it comes down to two things:
1. A community and culture that values education.
2. A society that allows for progress in the classroom.
Just look at the current outcry against Common Core. People think Obama and his Chicago cronies are trying to turn your kids into liberal atheists! Some of the hyperbole from cranky old men about Common Core curriculum makes me question how we've managed to remain the #1 world power this long.
Look at the outcry against including evolution in the classroom. Scientists say cells replicate through mitosis. It's included in the textbook. Scientists say animals and plants evolve over time and that humans weren't just popped on Earth by two fingers being snapped. People then home school their kids.
Posted on 6/24/14 at 8:07 pm to StringedInstruments
quote:
1. A community and culture that values education.
2. A society that allows for progress in the classroom.
Wow, 2 wonderful platitudes and not a modicum of substance. Speaking of hyperbole, You're quick to belittle "cranky old men" ( who , BTW, helped build the country and made it #1) but you offer nothing other than ideas already in practice (evolution). Yep, you're an educator alright. Quick to repeat the union's talking points, but short on anything else.
Posted on 6/24/14 at 8:58 pm to tigerinthebueche
quote:
Wow, 2 wonderful platitudes and not a modicum of substance. Speaking of hyperbole, You're quick to belittle "cranky old men" ( who , BTW, helped build the country and made it #1) but you offer nothing other than ideas already in practice (evolution). Yep, you're an educator alright. Quick to repeat the union's talking points, but short on anything else.
Posted on 6/24/14 at 8:59 pm to StringedInstruments
Figured that would rile you up. But seriously what specifically would you do?
Posted on 6/24/14 at 9:08 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
I completely disagree with the idea that standardized testing is one of the major problems with schools today. Standardized tests are used in every country that is currently doing better than we are at education.
Standardized testing has it's place in education. It's definitely a tool but shouldn't be THE tool.
Here's my problem, in a nutshell with standardized tests. When you have a high-stakes test and tie everything to it (student graduation, school money, salaries, teacher and administrator job security), all of the instructional time is spent on... you guessed it... doing as well as possible on that particular test, so you better make it a good one.
When a standardized test is your high-stakes test, then students are bubbling in letters for much of their time. There's something wrong with a testing system that assesses how well a student can write or research by shading in a circle. Think about that for a moment. A student doesn't have to be able to write a single essay during his or her academic career in order to score proficient or advanced on a standardized test. That student just needs to know how to demonstrate knowledge on that test. How is this a valuable and relevant use of their educational time?
If we're going to have high-stakes testing, I want that test to resemble relevant real-world skills as much as possible. If teachers are going to inevitably teach to the test, at least they'd be spending their time teaching to something worthwhile.
This post was edited on 6/24/14 at 9:11 pm
Posted on 6/24/14 at 9:14 pm to shutterspeed
Well said
Posted on 6/24/14 at 9:17 pm to cokebottleag
quote:True but they kick kids out of school based on how they do on those tests so it's not fair to compare and say they're doing better. In some countries the results from tests can determine, early on, which path one takes.
I completely disagree with the idea that standardized testing is one of the major problems with schools today. Standardized tests are used in every country that is currently doing better than we are at education.
So not only are you comparing ALL of ours to the select of other countries but also the "importance" placed on them. Kids try when it's nut cutting.
Posted on 6/24/14 at 9:17 pm to ZereauxSum
It makes me sad that people like you are lying to yourself. Are you going to tell me that integration didn't destroy public education in this country? It's political correctness individuals like you, are the reason why this country is going to hell. I dare you to go sit in a classroom in a public school and come out after being in there for an hour and still say that you disagree with me. Better yet, attend a class at Southern and still come here and disagree with me. I did the two things that I'm telling you that you need to experience.
Posted on 6/24/14 at 9:18 pm to mailman
The system that is failing are the parents. Correct the problems at home, and you fix 90% of the problems at school. The people that abuse and bully people are typically from rocky and frustrating homes. Correct that, and the schools will correct themselves.
Posted on 6/24/14 at 9:19 pm to shutterspeed
quote:Certainly. Just as a welding instructor teaches a student to weld such that their welds will pass tests...
If teachers are going to inevitably teach to the test,
Posted on 6/24/14 at 9:24 pm to DrTyger
quote:
Get the federal government the frick out of the schools. Ever since they got involved it's all gone downhill fast. Let the individual communities run their own schools. The good ones will flourish without the government meddling and the bad ones won't drag the good ones down with them. Get rid of all the retarded standardized, leap like tests. Make teachers and parent accountable for their students. Don't be afraid to let some bad apples go. No child left behind my arse. Some people are just shite heads and there's no helping them. People should be more personally responsible and when they're too young to be then it's the parents job.
If we went by your retarded suggestions, we'd be in a Mad Max environment within 2 generations. Seriously, getting the federal government out of the schools would pretty much doom the lower class as well as a significant portion of the Middle Class. Illiteracy rates would rise astoundingly, people would be stabbing and killing each other at the age of 10, and everything would be chaos. Education is the thing I'm most comfortable having our government be apart of.
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