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re: Noel and Davis on front line minus Holiday at PG
Posted on 11/5/14 at 8:32 am to Boomshockalocka
Posted on 11/5/14 at 8:32 am to Boomshockalocka
quote:
clearly you gave up too much.
It's not clear yet. That was the price required and Holiday is a good fit with where I think this roster is headed. In the nixed CP3 trade your Rockets were about to really overpay for Pau Gasol because that move would allegedly deliver Nene as a free agent. You can't look at individual moves in a vacuum. I've been saying for a few years that the pieces acquired make sense with a 2015 judgement date. If Monty/AD can pull off making the playoffs this year and Demps can pull off turning Gordon into a decent SF next year, I'm not going to complain about a roster like this:
Holiday/Smith
Tyreke/Rivers
Green (probably doesn't matter which one)/2015 pick (We're making the playoffs and keeping the pick)
AD/Ryno
Asik/Ajinca
Give me Holiday, Tyreke and Asik over MCW, Vasquez, Lopez, and Saric every time.
This post was edited on 11/5/14 at 8:33 am
1
Posted on 11/5/14 at 9:35 am to TigerinATL
quote:
I'm not going to complain about a roster like this
That roster is not that much better, if at all, than what they have now. The Greens are not missing pieces.
quote:
That was the price required and Holiday is a good fit with where I think this roster is headed
It was dumb to agree to a top 6 protection. Just like the Rockets pick protection is dumb.
As for fit, I agree. But 2 top 10 picks for a (small) good defender and secondary ball handler is steep. You really think MCW can't be 80% of that?
Say they draft MCW, they can still get Evans, perhaps only by moving Vasquez. Lopez is still in play to protect Davis and be moved. Asik still becomes available; only now they can use Lopez's great deal as bait. Or dangle the 2015 pick and move Rolo in a separate move for a 3 (Clips were desperate for a 3rd big. Hello Jared Dudley). They still have 2014 pick to use as they want (McBuckets or Gordon or Saric or trade)
MCW/Evans
Evans/Gordon
Dudley/McBuckets
Davis/Anderson
Asik
Plus, likely a little more cap space to help round out the roster and likely attractive trade assets for a few years in McBuckets/MCW if a star guy wants out.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 9:45 am to corndeaux
quote:
Say they draft MCW, they can still get Evans,
I think Evans goes to Detroit in that scenario and we keep Vasquez who starts and empty stats his way to a starter level contract $8 million per year.
I also have zero belief in MCW. I think his ceiling is a John Wall/Rondo type, but I don't think he'll get there which makes him a defensive guard which means he'd never be more than an MLE level role playing starter.
I don't think the lineup you posted is better than the one I posted. But the bottom line is that this team goes as far as AD can take it and the important thing is to not surround him with players or coaches that get in his way. So all this arguing is fun but kind of moot and it's all on AD and whoever is the coach after Monty's contract is up (and that coach could still be Monty)
This post was edited on 11/5/14 at 9:47 am
Posted on 11/5/14 at 10:17 am to TigerinATL
quote:
makes him a defensive guard which means he'd never be more than an MLE level role playing starter.
And what is Holiday, exactly? With Evans on board, are 2 top 10 picks worth it for a better version of that defensive player?
quote:
don't think the lineup you posted is better than the one I posted
Me neither. I do think it's deeper and more flexible with more potential avenues for improvement though.
Like you say, they will get as far as Davis takes them. Not so sure what they've done with the roster, other than Asik and Anderson, and on the court hasn't gotten in his way.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 10:19 am to TigerinATL
Friends in Philly still said they rather Jrue than MCW. MCW is not a strong offensive player, but he's a hell of an athlete and is a better passing point guard than the scoring kind.
Looking at where we are, I think MCW/Burke and McDermott/Payton MIGHT offset Jrue.
At this point, we already know they were not picking Noel for this team. We knew we needed an upgrade to Vasquez after seeing his limitations on defense. It still all points to the 14.5mil that Gordon eats up, 23% of the cap. With that money, our depth on our bench would be 7-8th guy instead of just a 6th dude and a solid starter at SF.
Looking at where we are, I think MCW/Burke and McDermott/Payton MIGHT offset Jrue.
At this point, we already know they were not picking Noel for this team. We knew we needed an upgrade to Vasquez after seeing his limitations on defense. It still all points to the 14.5mil that Gordon eats up, 23% of the cap. With that money, our depth on our bench would be 7-8th guy instead of just a 6th dude and a solid starter at SF.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 10:23 am to corndeaux
I like holidays game a lot more than MCW. The guy just can't hit a jump shot.
Holiday is only a year or so older.
Holiday is only a year or so older.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 10:25 am to corndeaux
quote:
Say they draft MCW, they can still get Evans, perhaps only by moving Vasquez.
Jrue was a part in Tyreke coming here.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 10:27 am to nicholastiger
you got a case of the tard if you would rather have noel davis down low with a free agent pg vs asik davis and holliday at point.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 10:28 am to htran90
quote:
At this point, we already know they were not picking Noel for this team. We knew we needed an upgrade to Vasquez after seeing his limitations on defense. It still all points to the 14.5mil that Gordon eats up, 23% of the cap. With that money, our depth on our bench would be 7-8th guy instead of just a 6th dude and a solid starter at SF.
That 14.5 mil could go a long way.
That's a competent 3 and at least 1-2 solid bench players.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 10:29 am to slutiger5
quote:
you got a case of the tard if you would rather have noel davis down low with a free agent pg vs asik davis and holliday at point.
He'll be a very good defender but I doubt he can hold up for 82 games. His ceiling is larry sanders imo.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 10:30 am to LosLobos111
Holiday is clearly the better player right now and perhaps always will be. That's not the question.
It's can MCW give enough of what Holiday is asked to do (defense, creating) that the extra $ from his cheaper contract and the extra pick be used to strengthen the rest of the roster?
And yes, it's a moot point. But to evaluate the trade down the line, that will be the issue. Maybe he could have, maybe he's a bust. But it's not outrageous to question the deal
It's can MCW give enough of what Holiday is asked to do (defense, creating) that the extra $ from his cheaper contract and the extra pick be used to strengthen the rest of the roster?
And yes, it's a moot point. But to evaluate the trade down the line, that will be the issue. Maybe he could have, maybe he's a bust. But it's not outrageous to question the deal
This post was edited on 11/5/14 at 10:33 am
Posted on 11/5/14 at 10:31 am to LosLobos111
quote:
was a part in Tyreke coming
$3 extra million per year than any other offer played a part too.
This post was edited on 11/5/14 at 10:33 am
Posted on 11/5/14 at 11:03 am to corndeaux
quote:
And what is Holiday, exactly?
An efficient 2 way player.
quote:
With Evans on board, are 2 top 10 picks worth it for a better version of that defensive player?
I think that 2013 pick had little value. In hindsight, if you keep the pick the move to make is probably trade back from 6 and draft Steven Adams or Gorgui Dieng.
Giving the 2014 draft class benefit of the doubt, I think the better question is what else could you have gotten for Noel besides Holiday? From what I can remember of our mindset back then, everyone but Jester was desperate to move on from Vasquez too. I don't like Jennings and ATL matched on Teague. If you could somehow turn Noel into a S&T of Teague and Korver would I pass up Holiday? Yes. But a deal like that wouldn't happen for many reasons.
I guess I just dislike the 2013 draft enough that it's hard for me to value that pick as a mythical magical lottery pick and I need better trade options before I turn down Holiday.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 11:09 am to corndeaux
quote:
$3 extra million per year than any other offer played a part too.
Have you seen a figure on that? I never saw what Detroit offered, but if we didn't have Holiday I've always assumed he'd have gone there if their offer was in the ball park with ours because they'd have seemed closer to the playoffs.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 11:22 am to Boomshockalocka
quote:
Hey man I enjoy talking hoops there isn't always basektball talk on the MSB so I sometimes like to come here. I don't even respond to half of the threads here that I'd like to.
I appreciate your sacrifice.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 12:39 pm to 504Voodoo
quote:
I really think some of us fail to remember that Jrue is only 24 years of age and an allstar at the age of 22. The kid's game has a ton of growing to do and he isn't even close to his prime.
all-star doesn't matter. He was all star because of the conference he played in. He wasn't elite. And why do you think he has a lot of upward potential? He already plays a polished game. He's just not ridiculously talented.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 1:06 pm to TheSexecutioner
I don't know about that.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 1:38 pm to TheSexecutioner
quote:
all-star doesn't matter. He was all star because of the conference he played in. He wasn't elite. And why do you think he has a lot of upward potential? He already plays a polished game. He's just not ridiculously talented.
He's polished, but let me ask most people this.
Would you be okay with a 14/3/7 PG that shoots 44/37/80 and plays solid defense guarantee. Or would you prefer as far as we know, a PG that will do something like 12/4/7, but has more turnovers and shoots at a lower % and a PG that's ceiling is maybe 18/3/8 (Payton).
Lets be real/honest, we weren't going to draft Steven Adams last year with Noel on the board.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 1:41 pm to nicholastiger
We would be getting crushed inside in the division. Memphis, Dallas, San An, and Houston would do what they want. Jrue is a better PG than we would have gotten in the draft that year and Philly will be waiting for a few years before you can compare Noel to Tyson Chandler.
Posted on 11/5/14 at 1:52 pm to TigerinATL
quote:
An efficient 2 way player.
I don't think efficient describes Holidays offense. He's not bad, but over his career he's not efficient.
Turning him into a lower usage offensive player is the right call IMO. Fisher made the point that he could be the D and 3 guy the team it's looking for. But it's perhaps harder to swallow: you're getting 13/6 and defense instead of 18/8 for 2 top 10 picks and $11M/year.
I think we just differ on MCW- and that's fine. No real answer. I was a fan of MCW before the draft. Still like his potential, but Philly is a grease fire.
Not sure about Detroit's offer for Evans. Do remember many pegging his value around $8-$9M/year,
This post was edited on 11/5/14 at 1:54 pm
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