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Message
Let's talk Roster Construction / Theory
Posted on 6/2/16 at 1:53 pm
Posted on 6/2/16 at 1:53 pm
I wish I had the time to make this a very thoughtful post, but I don't.
I just wanted to have a discussion on how you would ideally want this team to be set up around AD in this era of basketball. I'm not necessarily talking about specific players, trades, draft picks, just how you would want the roster to look to maximize his talents.
To me, its pretty simple:
Shooters shooters shooters. It is pretty clear in the modern NBA that only two shots matter: 1) At the rim (I'm counting a postup game in this) and 2) The 3 pointer. Everything else is kind of a waste of time in this era.
I want guys at the 1, 2 and 3 (especially the 2 and 3) to have respectable 3 point shots. I want the perimeter completely spread out with guys that can drain. I want our PG to also be able to penetrate so he can either kick out to 3 point shooters or run PnR, or create his own shot.
Ideally, we would only have a part time 5 for relatively cheap that can clean up the offensive glass at a decent degree and can finish at the rim if need be. You'd also want a bench 3/4 swing with some semblance of defense so you can play AD at 5 in finishing situations.
We are talking ideal roster construction in theory, not reality.
TLDR: Shooters. Shooters Shooters.
This is kind of why I'm on the Buddy Bandwagon. We need someone with range that is fearless.
I just wanted to have a discussion on how you would ideally want this team to be set up around AD in this era of basketball. I'm not necessarily talking about specific players, trades, draft picks, just how you would want the roster to look to maximize his talents.
To me, its pretty simple:
Shooters shooters shooters. It is pretty clear in the modern NBA that only two shots matter: 1) At the rim (I'm counting a postup game in this) and 2) The 3 pointer. Everything else is kind of a waste of time in this era.
I want guys at the 1, 2 and 3 (especially the 2 and 3) to have respectable 3 point shots. I want the perimeter completely spread out with guys that can drain. I want our PG to also be able to penetrate so he can either kick out to 3 point shooters or run PnR, or create his own shot.
Ideally, we would only have a part time 5 for relatively cheap that can clean up the offensive glass at a decent degree and can finish at the rim if need be. You'd also want a bench 3/4 swing with some semblance of defense so you can play AD at 5 in finishing situations.
We are talking ideal roster construction in theory, not reality.
TLDR: Shooters. Shooters Shooters.
This is kind of why I'm on the Buddy Bandwagon. We need someone with range that is fearless.
Posted on 6/2/16 at 2:03 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
I want guys at the 1, 2 and 3 (especially the 2 and 3) to have respectable 3 point shots. I want the perimeter completely spread out with guys that can drain. I want our PG to also be able to penetrate so he can either kick out to 3 point shooters or run PnR, or create his own shot.
We aren't that far away from a crunch time small ball lineup that would be hard to stop for defenses.
Jrue
Hield
QPon
Jared Dudley
AD
That lineup has some defensive challenges for sure, and Jrue is really the only penetrator, but you've got the Jrue/AD P&R surrounded by 3 shooters that defenses should want to stay home on. If you could swap out Hield for Dunn and shift Jrue to SG, you've got 2 penetrators and still 3 shooters if Dunn is the primary PG. It also improves the defense.
Posted on 6/2/16 at 2:04 pm to Fun Bunch
Also need to be able to play D. Not sure Buddy can do that.
Posted on 6/2/16 at 2:21 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
how you would ideally want this team to be set up around AD in this era of basketball
Above all, I want more size/athleticism. Davis is one of the most athletic players in the league, maximize that advantage while also understanding he can't carry the entire load in the paint by himself. Anderson/Asik just don't offer enough down there or play enough to lighten Davis's load.
The OKC model of finding players with raw athleticism next to Davis is a decent blueprint. Ideally, would like more skills too.
Primary Ball Handlers- guys who can get into the paint with vision and ability to pass to the open man
Wings- Mix of shooting, size, rebounding, passing, secondary creating. Need at least one guy who can play up at the 4 competently
Bigs- Likely play Davis at the 5 and a wing up in crunch time/playoffs, so a part time 5 who can move some, rebound, and defend. One 3pt shooting big and an athlete who will crash the glass/run and offer enough to give passable minutes at the 5
Posted on 6/2/16 at 2:23 pm to Solo
quote:
Also need to be able to play D. Not sure Buddy can do that
I doubt he comes out the gate a great defender but he has made it a point of emphasis based on his interviews and he has no physical limitations that would prevent him from becoming one.
Posted on 6/2/16 at 2:23 pm to Solo
I think he can be taught and get better at it. Especially with playing with someone like AD. I want the shooting and intangibles that shield brings. The rest will come in time
Posted on 6/2/16 at 2:36 pm to corndeaux
quote:
Wings- Mix of shooting, size, rebounding, passing, secondary creating. Need at least one guy who can play up at the 4 competently
Marvin Williams would be a perfect fit for this role
Posted on 6/2/16 at 2:38 pm to Fun Bunch
quote:
Shooters. Shooters Shooters
This is why I'm on the Buddy bandwagon too. As of now, we have no one on this roster that's a real threat to stretch the defense and allow AD to go to work. At minimum, Buddy will solve that immediately.
Posted on 6/2/16 at 2:59 pm to Hammond Tiger Fan
Gordon and Anderson were shooters
This team has a long way to go as far as building, which is why I'm not all in on the fixation on Hield
Guys like Chriss and Bender, should they fall, should be in play
This team has a long way to go as far as building, which is why I'm not all in on the fixation on Hield
Guys like Chriss and Bender, should they fall, should be in play
Posted on 6/2/16 at 3:36 pm to GynoSandberg
I want a PG that is able to run an offense with ease racking up assists and playing good defense. If he's a good shooter, even better, but not really that necessary. (Rondo)
I want a SG that is a scorer and a closer (hope that guy is Hield) and can play second or first fiddle to AD.
I want a SF that can score and play good defense. The 2 and 3 here can be reversed, but one of them has to be a closer.
I want AD at the 4.
I want a 5 that is young and aggressive. Gets up and down the court, blocks/alters shots, and gets his hands on offensive rebounds all the time (Steven Adams)
In this scenario, the money guys should be the 2, 3 and 4. 1 and 5 are role players.
We also need 2 bench wing players that can knock down an open shot or be a great defender, a backup 4 that can hit an open jumper and is aggresive on the boards, a veteran big, and a ball handler that can create his own shot and score in bunches when he's hot.
What I want is Boston's championship team.
starters:
Rondo
Allen
Pierce
KG
Perkins
wing players:
Tony Allen
James Posey
backup bigs:
Powe (young)
Big Baby (young)
PJ Brown (veteran)
bench scorers:
Cassell (veteran)
House (young)
and then you had Scott Pollard to go in and retaliate when shite got rough.
Jrue can be the PG. lacks the vision and drive to get everyone else open shots like Rondo, but makes up for it with his shooting and scoring ability.
Assuming Heild, he needs to be the Ray Allen type
We need to find a SF Pierce, which Batum is not, nor is Harrison Barnes, or any SF FA right now it appears. Need to get lucky here, either in the draft or in a trade b/c i don't think we can get it in FA.
We have the KG in AD
Shouldn't be that difficult to get a young Perkins type player at the 5.
QPon is a good enough wing bench player
as for the rest of the bench, we got nothing. Getting that bulk bench scorer is what is needed. Ryno sort of played that role, but i don't want a no defense 4 shooting fade aways from the post as our bench scorer. As silly as it sounds, a guy like Pargo back in the day is what this role is for. He might go games where he sucks, but he can have games where he can single handedly win you the game only scoring 16 points as a bench player.
I want a SG that is a scorer and a closer (hope that guy is Hield) and can play second or first fiddle to AD.
I want a SF that can score and play good defense. The 2 and 3 here can be reversed, but one of them has to be a closer.
I want AD at the 4.
I want a 5 that is young and aggressive. Gets up and down the court, blocks/alters shots, and gets his hands on offensive rebounds all the time (Steven Adams)
In this scenario, the money guys should be the 2, 3 and 4. 1 and 5 are role players.
We also need 2 bench wing players that can knock down an open shot or be a great defender, a backup 4 that can hit an open jumper and is aggresive on the boards, a veteran big, and a ball handler that can create his own shot and score in bunches when he's hot.
What I want is Boston's championship team.
starters:
Rondo
Allen
Pierce
KG
Perkins
wing players:
Tony Allen
James Posey
backup bigs:
Powe (young)
Big Baby (young)
PJ Brown (veteran)
bench scorers:
Cassell (veteran)
House (young)
and then you had Scott Pollard to go in and retaliate when shite got rough.
Jrue can be the PG. lacks the vision and drive to get everyone else open shots like Rondo, but makes up for it with his shooting and scoring ability.
Assuming Heild, he needs to be the Ray Allen type
We need to find a SF Pierce, which Batum is not, nor is Harrison Barnes, or any SF FA right now it appears. Need to get lucky here, either in the draft or in a trade b/c i don't think we can get it in FA.
We have the KG in AD
Shouldn't be that difficult to get a young Perkins type player at the 5.
QPon is a good enough wing bench player
as for the rest of the bench, we got nothing. Getting that bulk bench scorer is what is needed. Ryno sort of played that role, but i don't want a no defense 4 shooting fade aways from the post as our bench scorer. As silly as it sounds, a guy like Pargo back in the day is what this role is for. He might go games where he sucks, but he can have games where he can single handedly win you the game only scoring 16 points as a bench player.
Posted on 6/2/16 at 3:57 pm to Solo
My theory about roster construction is that there is no such thing as an ideal roster make-up. There are different paths to contention, and the "ideal" path is the one most readily available. In our case we need to find another top 25 player to pair with AD. You can't win a championship without a superstar (which we have), and one or two second-tier stars (which we don't have). I don't care about usage rates, or any other advanced statistics when it comes to that pairing.
What I do believe in is using advanced statistics to find the right role players to surround them with. Players that will enhance their strengths, and hide their weaknesses. Case in point: bringing in better perimeter defenders because the second star is a below the rim 5, or better shooters if he is a slashing wing.
I also completely disagree with the "mid-range shooting is useless" mentality that has taken over the last couple of years. People get so caught up in the handful of the games that GSW won by having more made 3s than 2s, they forget that Curry, Livingston, and several other players on that roster are actually very good mid-range shooters. Yes, their 3pt shooting helps them win games, but it's their ability to score from all spots on the court that makes their offense so dangerous. If our future #2 is an elite mid-range shooter, but a poor 3pt shooter, so be it.
What I do believe in is using advanced statistics to find the right role players to surround them with. Players that will enhance their strengths, and hide their weaknesses. Case in point: bringing in better perimeter defenders because the second star is a below the rim 5, or better shooters if he is a slashing wing.
I also completely disagree with the "mid-range shooting is useless" mentality that has taken over the last couple of years. People get so caught up in the handful of the games that GSW won by having more made 3s than 2s, they forget that Curry, Livingston, and several other players on that roster are actually very good mid-range shooters. Yes, their 3pt shooting helps them win games, but it's their ability to score from all spots on the court that makes their offense so dangerous. If our future #2 is an elite mid-range shooter, but a poor 3pt shooter, so be it.
Posted on 6/2/16 at 4:40 pm to HickfawJim1
quote:
If our future #2 is an elite mid-range shooter, but a poor 3pt shooter, so be it.
AD can't shoot the 3. If our #2 is also a poor shooter from 3, we aren't going to compete.
Also if someone cannot shoot the 3, they typically won't be elite from midrange. I can't think of any non-bigs who were elite midrange and poor from 3. Can you name a player you are thinking of?
Posted on 6/2/16 at 4:53 pm to GynoSandberg
We were a better defensive team when quincy was healthy. I think it ultimately ends up us needing a 3&d SF at all times or we continue to risk being a defensive atrocity
Posted on 6/2/16 at 8:26 pm to htran90
If somehow we got Hield in the draft and Barnes in FA it would be perfect.
This post was edited on 6/2/16 at 8:28 pm
Posted on 6/2/16 at 8:47 pm to NOFOX
quote:
Also if someone cannot shoot the 3, they typically won't be elite from midrange. I can't think of any non-bigs who were elite midrange and poor from 3. Can you name a player you are thinking of?
Richard Hamilton is the answer.
DeRozen and D Wade.
Tony Parker for most of his career.
After tonight, Shaun Livingston as well
This post was edited on 6/2/16 at 10:09 pm
Posted on 6/2/16 at 9:29 pm to Colonel Flagg
quote:
Barnes in FA it would be perfect.
Why are so many people eager to pay Harrison Barnes $20 million? Ariza has been roughly a MLE player (old CBA) since he became an adequate 3 point shooter. How is Barnes more than twice as good as a younger Ariza? Yeah he's better at 3 at this age, but not at D. I realize part of the answer is the changed caponomics, but it hasn't changed that much.
This post was edited on 6/2/16 at 9:30 pm
Posted on 6/2/16 at 9:39 pm to TigerinATL
Anyone that wants to pay Barnes 20+ is insane.
Posted on 6/2/16 at 10:10 pm to Fun Bunch
Barnes turned down $16M a year last summer I believe.
I agree though. He is without a doubt not worth that much.
I agree though. He is without a doubt not worth that much.
Posted on 6/3/16 at 7:13 am to TigerinATL
Different type of D though. Barnes can defend on the block and play the 4. Value there as everyone tries to go smaller.
That said, 20M+, even with a 107M cap, is a very steep price. Would love him next to Davis, but not for that $
ETA- what would Ariza get this summer? Reasonable comps have all gotten ~$12-$15M annually before the spike. Wing market is just insane
That said, 20M+, even with a 107M cap, is a very steep price. Would love him next to Davis, but not for that $
ETA- what would Ariza get this summer? Reasonable comps have all gotten ~$12-$15M annually before the spike. Wing market is just insane
This post was edited on 6/3/16 at 7:16 am
Posted on 6/3/16 at 7:37 am to GynoSandberg
quote:
Gordon and Anderson were shooters
And they both expired after last year.
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