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re: Game of Thrones Season 3 Episode 2: Dark Wings, Dark Words - NO SPOILERS thread
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:24 am to Matisyeezy
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:24 am to Matisyeezy
first off i hate that this thread has little to do with the show and so much to do with the spoiler war. so let's just talk about the show, eh?
i kinda feel like the hand is a shitty job. a glorified sheriff. or at least a job no one wants/or fit to do it. for instance ned was fit to do it but probably didn't want it.
edit: i thought this original comment was about jamie being hand of the king at one point. sorry. tyrion was a great hand and did seem to like it. getting back to jamie though:
i dont fully understand jamie's motivations/aspirations yet. he doesn't seem to be overly interested in power or at least personal power (i'm sure he's interested however in his family being in power). he's an excellent warrior but not war like. maybe his motivations are just being an overall badass with a sword.
the more i thought about this episode (which i had plenty of time to do while filtering thru spoiler war stuff) i thought the scene with theon was telling when he was being questioned about taking winterfell and his indecisive answers. i think in a way he believed all the answers he gave to some extent. although i'm sure trying to tell your torturer what they want to hear is the biggest motivation.
he's a little bit of a tragic character in the way he's being manipulated by his family (greyjoy). but i don't necessarily have a problem with him getting his. he could be helping out robb and instead he decided to turn. i think it would be cool if part of his torture would be prolonged listening to michael bolton.......house bolton......no???
someone mentioned littlefinger, didn't joffrey at the end of blkackwater give harrenhal (sp?) to him? did he know that it's a piece of shite and burned out and by he i mean both of them (joffrey and littlefinger)? littlefinger seemed genuinely grateful but he, like varys, seems to know what's going on so i thought he would know that castle is in ruins.
i guess we'll find out later (stay away book readers i'm not trying to further a war here).
also speaking of spoilers (but not really), i went back and watched the season preview trailer from HBO again, they show so many rapid fire scenes at the end but i froze it a lot and watched every frame. and damn son.... every sunday is gonna take forever.
quote:
Tyrion/Shae was interesting to me. I like them. She doesn't take any crap. I'm really excited to see him get back into messing with things. I understand why he got removed from his position as the Hand in favor of his father, but it's gotta feel like a raw deal for him. He did a great job given what he had to work with.
i kinda feel like the hand is a shitty job. a glorified sheriff. or at least a job no one wants/or fit to do it. for instance ned was fit to do it but probably didn't want it.
edit: i thought this original comment was about jamie being hand of the king at one point. sorry. tyrion was a great hand and did seem to like it. getting back to jamie though:
i dont fully understand jamie's motivations/aspirations yet. he doesn't seem to be overly interested in power or at least personal power (i'm sure he's interested however in his family being in power). he's an excellent warrior but not war like. maybe his motivations are just being an overall badass with a sword.
quote:
Yeah, I hope Yara's attempt to free him gets wrecked. Theon deserves what he's getting right now, IMO. The Starks took him in and Ned raised him essentially as his own. That he would turn his back on all that just to try to win the approval of a father who gave him away and clearly doesn't care all that much about him is just dirty. I understand the desire for parental approval, but sometimes you just have crappy parents and should be happy someone else has stepped in to fill that role.
the more i thought about this episode (which i had plenty of time to do while filtering thru spoiler war stuff) i thought the scene with theon was telling when he was being questioned about taking winterfell and his indecisive answers. i think in a way he believed all the answers he gave to some extent. although i'm sure trying to tell your torturer what they want to hear is the biggest motivation.
he's a little bit of a tragic character in the way he's being manipulated by his family (greyjoy). but i don't necessarily have a problem with him getting his. he could be helping out robb and instead he decided to turn. i think it would be cool if part of his torture would be prolonged listening to michael bolton.......house bolton......no???
someone mentioned littlefinger, didn't joffrey at the end of blkackwater give harrenhal (sp?) to him? did he know that it's a piece of shite and burned out and by he i mean both of them (joffrey and littlefinger)? littlefinger seemed genuinely grateful but he, like varys, seems to know what's going on so i thought he would know that castle is in ruins.
i guess we'll find out later (stay away book readers i'm not trying to further a war here).
also speaking of spoilers (but not really), i went back and watched the season preview trailer from HBO again, they show so many rapid fire scenes at the end but i froze it a lot and watched every frame. and damn son.... every sunday is gonna take forever.
This post was edited on 4/9/13 at 11:27 am
7
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:30 am to TDTGodfather
that was a very solid post, fwiw.
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:32 am to TDTGodfather
quote:the illiterates can't answer all of your questions. so enjoy
stay away book readers
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:34 am to manwich
meh, if he wants answers to those questions there is a thread for that.
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:36 am to TDTGodfather
quote:
i kinda feel like the hand is a shitty job. a glorified sheriff. or at least a job no one wants/or fit to do it. for instance ned was fit to do it but probably didn't want it.
Tyrion, almost literally, single-handedly beat Stannis with his bombs and troop assignments. That Tywin had to struggle to give him even the barest of note for that shows how much of a douchebag Tywin truly is. It's a very odd blindspot for him though because his entire being is centered around using anything that brings more gold and glory to the Lannister name. Normally I think he would snatch up someone so clever, but his intense hatred and disgust of Tyrion makes him not just blind to it, but absolutely REFUSE to see it.
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:39 am to manwich
quote:
the illiterates can't answer all of your questions. so enjoy
i don't care about spoilers, i really don't. but understand that i dont want to provoke one out of a book reader who is just trying to be helpful.
i'm more interested in discussion on the show and predictions of what might happen from show watchers.
but i wasn't telling book readers to GFT, just to not answer that question if they know the answer.
edit: also, i miss some things that show watchers can clarify.
This post was edited on 4/9/13 at 11:41 am
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:41 am to TDTGodfather
quote:
TDTGodfather
great post, my man
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:49 am to Bard
quote:
Tyrion, almost literally, single-handedly beat Stannis with his bombs and troop assignments. That Tywin had to struggle to give him even the barest of note for that shows how much of a douchebag Tywin truly is. It's a very odd blindspot for him though because his entire being is centered around using anything that brings more gold and glory to the Lannister name. Normally I think he would snatch up someone so clever, but his intense hatred and disgust of Tyrion makes him not just blind to it, but absolutely REFUSE to see it.
i agree with all you said. it's hard to believe that tywin can't overlook whoring for a son that is actually a good strategist and a much better leader of men than his grandson who in essence started this whole shite storm with killing ned.
sure, stannis would probably still rise up but if the lannisters could've somehow kept the starks on their side and hence the north, there wouldn't be much of a war.
that said, tyrion seems at his best when the chips are down and when he goes against his family. i guess tywin's spurning of him will lead to some cool tyrion being a smartass/badass stuff. so i'm ok with it. really interested to see where his story arc goes. (and hope to the 7 gods that bronn stays with him, they are an awesome pair to watch)
This post was edited on 4/9/13 at 11:51 am
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:50 am to TDTGodfather
Wow, great post, man. Lots to digest.
I guess I've always thought of the Hand as the executor and the principal aid to the king in terms of ruling. To put it in familiar terms, I think of the "Small Council" as our President's cabinet and the Hand sort of like the Secretary of State. It's not a perfect analogy by any means, but it was just my impression. To be the Hand is a pretty prestigious position by that logic, but I could be mistaken
Jaime is a bit of a mystery for me too at this point. We know he's the Kingslayer, but do we know his motivation behind that act? If we do I don't recall it. Was it purely political machinations because he thought Tywin could secure a marriage to the new king (did they know it was going to be Robert?), thus binding the Lannisters to the throne? That seems logical just because it seems like everyone wants the throne, but I feel like there's more going on here because with every scheme in the show so far there's always MORE.
As for Theon, he definitely qualifies as tragic. Still don't like him, though. I guess that's hypocritical of me, though, because I love Littlefinger and he seems like he'd sell his own mother for the right opportunity. I guess it's the WAY they do it that makes me feel different. Littlefinger has no false pretenses and his loyalty is always in question; he's out for his own, pure and simple, and he is extremely calculating as he tries to secure it. Theon was impulsive and traitor to what was essentially his family. That just doesn't sit well with me.
Joffrey did give LF Harrenhal. I thought it was interesting because when Tyrion offered it LF didn't seem too excited about it. Of course, that could have been him just trying to squeeze more out of Tyrion, who knows? He definitely knows it's a POS/haunted, but what does he have to his name so far? Just his brothels? He's a self-made man with no noble family, or so I'd assume from Cersei's reference to his assumed sigil of the mockingbird. Perhaps in his upward climb the next step to him becoming true nobility is to acquire land, so POS or not it has to be done? So many questions and not enough answers
I guess I've always thought of the Hand as the executor and the principal aid to the king in terms of ruling. To put it in familiar terms, I think of the "Small Council" as our President's cabinet and the Hand sort of like the Secretary of State. It's not a perfect analogy by any means, but it was just my impression. To be the Hand is a pretty prestigious position by that logic, but I could be mistaken
Jaime is a bit of a mystery for me too at this point. We know he's the Kingslayer, but do we know his motivation behind that act? If we do I don't recall it. Was it purely political machinations because he thought Tywin could secure a marriage to the new king (did they know it was going to be Robert?), thus binding the Lannisters to the throne? That seems logical just because it seems like everyone wants the throne, but I feel like there's more going on here because with every scheme in the show so far there's always MORE.
As for Theon, he definitely qualifies as tragic. Still don't like him, though. I guess that's hypocritical of me, though, because I love Littlefinger and he seems like he'd sell his own mother for the right opportunity. I guess it's the WAY they do it that makes me feel different. Littlefinger has no false pretenses and his loyalty is always in question; he's out for his own, pure and simple, and he is extremely calculating as he tries to secure it. Theon was impulsive and traitor to what was essentially his family. That just doesn't sit well with me.
Joffrey did give LF Harrenhal. I thought it was interesting because when Tyrion offered it LF didn't seem too excited about it. Of course, that could have been him just trying to squeeze more out of Tyrion, who knows? He definitely knows it's a POS/haunted, but what does he have to his name so far? Just his brothels? He's a self-made man with no noble family, or so I'd assume from Cersei's reference to his assumed sigil of the mockingbird. Perhaps in his upward climb the next step to him becoming true nobility is to acquire land, so POS or not it has to be done? So many questions and not enough answers
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:51 am to TDTGodfather
quote:
i kinda feel like the hand is a shitty job
I can't remember who said it in the first season when Ned was still Hand (May have been Jaime Lannister). It was something along the lines of the King shits and the Hand wipes.
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:53 am to BluegrassBelle
Robert
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:56 am to Bard
Re: Tywin and Tyrion's relationship
I think it's far deeper then just the whoring. Like Ceresi, I think he holds Tyrion responsible for the death of his late wife.
I think it's far deeper then just the whoring. Like Ceresi, I think he holds Tyrion responsible for the death of his late wife.
This post was edited on 4/9/13 at 11:57 am
Posted on 4/9/13 at 11:56 am to TDTGodfather
quote:
i agree with all you said. it's hard to believe that tywin can't overlook whoring for a son that is actually a good strategist and a much better leader of men than his grandson who in essence started this whole shite storm with killing ned.
It seems Tywin legitimately believes Tyrion is at fault for killing his mom/Tywins wife.
That or Tywin is so egotistical that he is quite literally ashamed that he could have produced an imp.
Posted on 4/9/13 at 12:01 pm to Matisyeezy
quote:
Wow, great post, man. Lots to digest.
I guess I've always thought of the Hand as the executor and the principal aid to the king in terms of ruling. To put it in familiar terms, I think of the "Small Council" as our President's cabinet and the Hand sort of like the Secretary of State. It's not a perfect analogy by any means, but it was just my impression. To be the Hand is a pretty prestigious position by that logic, but I could be mistaken
Jaime is a bit of a mystery for me too at this point. We know he's the Kingslayer, but do we know his motivation behind that act? If we do I don't recall it. Was it purely political machinations because he thought Tywin could secure a marriage to the new king (did they know it was going to be Robert?), thus binding the Lannisters to the throne? That seems logical just because it seems like everyone wants the throne, but I feel like there's more going on here because with every scheme in the show so far there's always MORE.
As for Theon, he definitely qualifies as tragic. Still don't like him, though. I guess that's hypocritical of me, though, because I love Littlefinger and he seems like he'd sell his own mother for the right opportunity. I guess it's the WAY they do it that makes me feel different. Littlefinger has no false pretenses and his loyalty is always in question; he's out for his own, pure and simple, and he is extremely calculating as he tries to secure it. Theon was impulsive and traitor to what was essentially his family. That just doesn't sit well with me.
Joffrey did give LF Harrenhal. I thought it was interesting because when Tyrion offered it LF didn't seem too excited about it. Of course, that could have been him just trying to squeeze more out of Tyrion, who knows? He definitely knows it's a POS/haunted, but what does he have to his name so far? Just his brothels? He's a self-made man with no noble family, or so I'd assume from Cersei's reference to his assumed sigil of the mockingbird. Perhaps in his upward climb the next step to him becoming true nobility is to acquire land, so POS or not it has to be done? So many questions and not enough answers
yeah i guess the hand is prestigous when you put it that way. i don't know enough about jamie in the position other than he killed the mad king, but from all accounts jon arryn, ned, and even tyrion all acted honorably in carrying out its duties.
with theon the actor who plays him does a great job of balancing sympathy for the character and making you dislike him at the same time. much of this was conveyed with theon taking the castle but not wanting to hurt anyone in the process. he is pushed into almost every act of violence by his men.
good point about littlefinger (i watched the show The Shield and he definitely has a Vic Mackey vibe).
the only thing he seems genuine about other than wanting power is his love for Cat.
in fact, same with Jamie, you can see his love for Cersei is genuine even though it's incestual (sp?). they are twins too, correct??
Posted on 4/9/13 at 12:01 pm to hiltacular
quote:
That or Tywin is so egotistical that he is quite literally ashamed that he could have produced an imp.
This is definitely part of it. Dwarves are seen as monsters, and would normally be killed at birth if not for being high born.
Posted on 4/9/13 at 12:03 pm to BluegrassBelle
"You are an ill-made, spiteful little creature, full of envy, lust and low cunning."
damn
damn
Posted on 4/9/13 at 12:04 pm to hiltacular
I'm jumping on the Tywin/Tyrion train
This idea just popped in my head, it could be crazy, but I feel like there's something to it. Tyrion is DEFINITELY a blindspot for Tywin and he (Tywin) clearly blames him for her death. Do we know who the mother was? I may have forgotten, but is it possible Tywin's wife was the center of a scheme Tywin had concocted to secure the throne for himself? Her untimely demise threw that scheme out the window so now Tywin lost his shot and has to be content with his Plan B which puts a Lannister on the throne, but not HIM. Maybe THAT'S why he resents Tyrion so much. I find it a stretch to think he was just so in love with her that her death made him super sad. But again, if she wasn't connected to the throne this idea kinda goes out the window.
I mean, the show IS called the Game of Thrones for a reason.
This idea just popped in my head, it could be crazy, but I feel like there's something to it. Tyrion is DEFINITELY a blindspot for Tywin and he (Tywin) clearly blames him for her death. Do we know who the mother was? I may have forgotten, but is it possible Tywin's wife was the center of a scheme Tywin had concocted to secure the throne for himself? Her untimely demise threw that scheme out the window so now Tywin lost his shot and has to be content with his Plan B which puts a Lannister on the throne, but not HIM. Maybe THAT'S why he resents Tyrion so much. I find it a stretch to think he was just so in love with her that her death made him super sad. But again, if she wasn't connected to the throne this idea kinda goes out the window.
I mean, the show IS called the Game of Thrones for a reason.
Posted on 4/9/13 at 12:05 pm to TDTGodfather
quote:
someone mentioned littlefinger, didn't joffrey at the end of blkackwater give harrenhal (sp?) to him? did he know that it's a piece of shite and burned out and by he i mean both of them (joffrey and littlefinger)? littlefinger seemed genuinely grateful but he, like varys, seems to know what's going on so i thought he would know that castle is in ruins.
Along with the castle go all the lands (and possibly a title) . In the fuedal system the lands are a means to wealth and power. The castel can be re-built.
Posted on 4/9/13 at 12:06 pm to hiltacular
quote:
It seems Tywin legitimately believes Tyrion is at fault for killing his mom/Tywins wife.
That or Tywin is so egotistical that he is quite literally ashamed that he could have produced an imp.
true, probably a little of both.
that's what i like about the show, they really humanize tywin when arya is his cup bearer and then go with him being cold to his own flesh and blood.
once again, blackwater really should've been thing that tywin embraced tyrion for, and he just pushes him away further. you can see tyrion does respect his father although he may not like him but that battle was a chance for tyrion to get some respect despite his father not necessarily likeing him. tywin gave him neither.
Posted on 4/9/13 at 12:09 pm to TDTGodfather
quote:
with theon the actor who plays him does a great job
agreed. he balances that smug attitude with crushing self-doubt really well. the dialogue with his father about him giving his only boy to the Starks and 'did you take what was yours then?' was really powerful
Fun Fact of the Day: he's Lily Allen's younger brother
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