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re: Yes or No: Duncan is the better player than Kobe all time
Posted on 5/16/17 at 9:31 am to monkeybutt
Posted on 5/16/17 at 9:31 am to monkeybutt
quote:Crickets.
Explain then why Kobe is ranked 10-12 as a retired player and the only active player ranked above him is Lebron? All those other retired players in the top ten, why are they there? Media doesn't have any reason to push one retired player over the other.
1
Posted on 5/16/17 at 9:44 am to Goldrush25
Kobe Bryant 9 3 12
Kevin Garnett 9 3 12
Michael Jordan 9 - 9
Gary Payton 9 - 9
Tim Duncan 8 7 15
Scottie Pippen 8 2 10
Bobby Jones 8 1 9
Dennis Rodman7 1 8
Lebron James. 5 1 6
Glad to see someone is paying attention. Duncan has the most overall, & Kobe has the most first team selections.
Suppose since Lebron is 32, he could possibly have 6 more seasons of all defense to match Kobe into being 38 years old, but I highly doubt it. Would be cool to see though!!
Guess it's just lazy to me that people parrot what they hear on espn, talk radio & podcasts instead of formulating their own opinions.
It's interesting how many people came to the conclusion that Lebron hands down is the #2 player of all time, but completely ignore the defensive end.
The All-Defensive Team is generally composed of two five-man lineups, a first and a second team, comprising a total of 10 roster spots. Voting is now conducted by a panel of 123 writers and broadcasters.[1] Prior to the 2013–14 NBA season, voting was performed by the NBA head coaches, who were restricted from voting for players on their own team.[
Kevin Garnett 9 3 12
Michael Jordan 9 - 9
Gary Payton 9 - 9
Tim Duncan 8 7 15
Scottie Pippen 8 2 10
Bobby Jones 8 1 9
Dennis Rodman7 1 8
Lebron James. 5 1 6
quote:
Tim Duncan has the most.
Glad to see someone is paying attention. Duncan has the most overall, & Kobe has the most first team selections.
Suppose since Lebron is 32, he could possibly have 6 more seasons of all defense to match Kobe into being 38 years old, but I highly doubt it. Would be cool to see though!!
Guess it's just lazy to me that people parrot what they hear on espn, talk radio & podcasts instead of formulating their own opinions.
It's interesting how many people came to the conclusion that Lebron hands down is the #2 player of all time, but completely ignore the defensive end.
The All-Defensive Team is generally composed of two five-man lineups, a first and a second team, comprising a total of 10 roster spots. Voting is now conducted by a panel of 123 writers and broadcasters.[1] Prior to the 2013–14 NBA season, voting was performed by the NBA head coaches, who were restricted from voting for players on their own team.[
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:03 am to StrongBackWeakMind
quote:
quote: Explain then why Kobe is ranked 10-12 as a retired player and the only active player ranked above him is Lebron? All those other retired players in the top ten, why are they there? Media doesn't have any reason to push one retired player over the other. Crickets.
Sports journalists hate being accused of a phenomenon called recency bias. To me personally, making a list is an exercise in futility. Comparing the game from the 60s to the game in the 2000's is a fool's errand. 3 point shot didn't exist for a while, game strategies sophisticatively evolved, & rules have significantly changed
I love hearing first hand accounts of players I didn't have the pleasure of watching. There needs to be a balancing of the hero worshipping that goes on, because some people who love basketball don't get to fully appreciate players like Lebron. They try to cram him down your throat instead of letting his tape & record speak for itself, which is grating.
Duncan is less polarizing because he went about his business differently. You almost took him for granted. Same with Dirk. Both were gym rats who didn't crave media attention & probably won't get the appreciation long term b/c they didn't play the media game
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:04 am to AjaxFury
quote:
AjaxFury
do you think Kobe is better than Lebron?
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:28 am to tigerclaws15
quote:
do you think Kobe is better than Lebron?
I don't think in base, simplistic terms like that, its lazy.
Lebron is better at certain aspects of the game than Kobe, while Kobe was better in certain aspects of the game than Lebron. Both are champions. Both deserve mention when discussing the greats. One doesn't have to tear one down to build up the other.
Unfortunately, Lebron is "IT" right now, so not many can look at this rationally & probably won't be able to until his career is over. I suspect I will grow more of a fondness for Lebron's game the closer he gets to the twighlight of his career.
I pulled for Barkley & the Suns over Jordan in '93. Some years, I pulled for MJ. My Mavs were the worst team in the league back then, & I still went to their games. Always have liked several different players.
I've never understood the blind devotion to one player that exists today. When my buddies & teammates discussed sports back in the day, no one was trying to prop up Jordan or arguing heatedly about Bird vs Magic. People just appreciated what different players brought to the game. The internet has re-wired the way people think, it's a weird thing to observe in humanity
This post was edited on 5/16/17 at 10:29 am
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:30 am to AjaxFury
quote:This is quite literally one of the reasons that most NBA fans will tell you that Kobe's All Defense accolades you mentioned are pretty darn overrated.
Ok kids. Quick lesson: the media pushes narratives THAT CUSTOMERS WANT TO HEAR.
Kobe is retired. Why the hell would they market a fading star, which would alienate their core market: Lebron fans/haters? Of course they are going to prop up Lebron because that's what the readers want.
Lebron is a great player on his own merit, but if you think modern media outlets are the pinnacle of journalistic integrity whose narratives should guide your perspective, I don't know what to tell you. Hence, why I laid out statistical facts & video evidence for the eyes to see
But you already know that, i assume.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:30 am to AjaxFury
quote:
It's interesting how many people came to the conclusion that Lebron hands down is the #2 player of all time, but completely ignore the defensive end.
There is absolutely no point in arguing with you if this is one of your hot takes.Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:32 am to AjaxFury
quote:No, it's lazy for you to parrot what a few writers tell you you should believe about MVPs and All Defensive teams. Those don't mean a whole lot in these discussions, fwiw.
Guess it's just lazy to me that people parrot what they hear on espn, talk radio & podcasts instead of formulating their own opinions.
quote:Case in point. If you think peak Kobe was a better defender than peak LeBron, you're just blindly looking at accolades given by a bunch of writers you probably don't know and/or have bashed in the past.
It's interesting how many people came to the conclusion that Lebron hands down is the #2 player of all time, but completely ignore the defensive end.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:32 am to AjaxFury
quote:The only thing Kobe was irrefutably better at was free throw shooting.
Lebron is better at certain aspects of the game than Kobe, while Kobe was better in certain aspects of the game than Lebron.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:33 am to AjaxFury
quote:
Sports journalists hate being accused of a phenomenon called recency bias.
So, on the one hand, the media is biased towards ranking Lebron high because he is currently playing. On the other, they are biased against Kobe because he's too recent, and they rank him lower due to that. Solid analysis.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:35 am to shel311
quote:
This is quite literally one of the reasons that most NBA fans will tell you that Kobe's All Defense accolades you mentioned are pretty darn overrated.
But you already know that, i assume.
Wrong again Shel. Like I posted:
quote:
The All-Defensive Team is generally composed of two five-man lineups, a first and a second team, comprising a total of 10 roster spots. Voting is conducted by a panel of 123 writers and broadcasters.[1] Prior to the 2013–14 NBA season, voting was performed by the NBA head coaches, who were restricted from voting for players on their own team.
Coaches who watched tape on & game planned for Kobe voted for him all-defense first team. What motivation would coaches have to lie? The tape speaks for itself, although you probably wouldn't watch 5 minutes of Kobe's defensive highlights.
You'd likely prefer to read a 5 minute article that confirms your biases instead of challenging them.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:36 am to monkeybutt
He's been talking in circles for a while now.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:40 am to AjaxFury
quote:Fair enough.
Wrong again Shel. Like I posted:
quote:In fairness, coaches aren't exactly the best to give this award either IMO.
Coaches who watched tape on & game planned for Kobe voted for him all-defense first team. What motivation would coaches have to lie? The tape speaks for itself, although you probably wouldn't watch 5 minutes of Kobe's defensive highlights.
And if the tape speaks for itself, you'll concede that LeBron is clearly the better defender than Kobe, despite the All Defensive selection thing, so there's that.
Then again, you won't concede that LeBron is better than Kobe overall, so that shows your bias again.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:41 am to AjaxFury
quote:Kobe had a defensive rating below 105 in only 6 of 20 seasons. LeBron has done that 11 times in 14 seasons. Similarly MJ did that 11 times in 15 seasons.
Coaches who watched tape on & game planned for Kobe voted for him all-defense first team. What motivation would coaches have to lie? The tape speaks for itself, although you probably wouldn't watch 5 minutes of Kobe's defensive highlights.
Kobe can have all subjective defensive accolades, but the data, albeit raw, show that the teams scored more points with Kobe on the floor than MJ and LBJ.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:44 am to StrongBackWeakMind
quote:
He's been talking in circles for a while now.
The brainwashing is real.
Put your money where your mouth is & post Lebron's defensive highlights.
I'll watch them, though I doubt you'll watch the 2 Kobe highlights I posted. It's the easy way out of a jam. Which I suppose is why some of y'all are also amongst the blind Lebron cult. He took the easy ways out too.
They were wrong when they called Gen X the "lost generation". Form your own conclusions. Challenge what you think you know. But that's hard. We want instant gratification with minimal effort
This post was edited on 5/16/17 at 10:46 am
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:48 am to AjaxFury
quote:
The brainwashing is real.
Put your money where your mouth is & post Lebron's defensive highlights.
I'll watch them, though I doubt you'll watch the 2 Kobe highlights I posted. It's the easy way out of a jam. Which I suppose is why some of y'all are also amongst the blind Lebron cult. He took the easy ways out too.
They were wrong when they called Gen X the "lost generation". Form your own conclusions. Challenge what you think you know. But that's hard. shite, let's just take the easy way out & join up with the sheeple
A. You must not watch basketball if you need someone to post a youtube video of Lebron playing defense to know that he is an elite defensive player.
B. The rest of the shite you posted is comical "get off my lawn" bullshite.
C. I don't really recall anyone saying Kobe was not a good defender.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:53 am to buckeye_vol
Zone defense was added in 2001-2002, which aids defenders struggling 1 on 1
Further, those new bullshite stats nerds who never played sports invented don't take into account the defensive scheme. How can you rate the defender with a #, when the computer doesn't know what the coaches defensive scheme was that possession?
Simple, man to man 1 on 1. That's what I look at. And if you can't see by watching tape that Kobe was an absolute demon (yes, better than Lebron who is a terrific defender in his own right), then it's a waste of my time discussing this further with you. Kobe was doing chase down blocks while Lebron was barely in middle school.
Further, those new bullshite stats nerds who never played sports invented don't take into account the defensive scheme. How can you rate the defender with a #, when the computer doesn't know what the coaches defensive scheme was that possession?
Simple, man to man 1 on 1. That's what I look at. And if you can't see by watching tape that Kobe was an absolute demon (yes, better than Lebron who is a terrific defender in his own right), then it's a waste of my time discussing this further with you. Kobe was doing chase down blocks while Lebron was barely in middle school.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:56 am to AjaxFury
The sad part is, you don't realize how you're talking in circles.
As for Lebron's defensive highlights, here you go. Although I'm not sure what posting highlights from either Lebron or Kobe proves.
ETA: You posted a defensive highlight reel as some sort of evidence and you're insulting the intelligence of (your assumption) my generation. Sure thing, bud.
ETA2: As for thinking for myself...
- per 100 possessions, Lebron has a better defensive rating
- in fewer seasons, Lebron has a higher defensive win share and a higher peak win share
As for Lebron's defensive highlights, here you go. Although I'm not sure what posting highlights from either Lebron or Kobe proves.
ETA: You posted a defensive highlight reel as some sort of evidence and you're insulting the intelligence of (your assumption) my generation.
Sure thing, bud. ETA2: As for thinking for myself...
- per 100 possessions, Lebron has a better defensive rating
- in fewer seasons, Lebron has a higher defensive win share and a higher peak win share
This post was edited on 5/16/17 at 11:06 am
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:59 am to AjaxFury
quote:Even better than that:
Put your money where your mouth is & post Lebron's defensive highlights.
LeBron James is better at playing defense than the idealized version of an NBA defender, as conceptualized by an analytic system that factors in everything from the precise positioning of every player on the floor to the individual skill-sets of the players involved on a given play. LeBron James is not fair.
Posted on 5/16/17 at 10:59 am to AjaxFury
quote:
I don't think in base, simplistic terms like that, its lazy.
Of course not.
quote:
Lebron is better at certain aspects of the game than Kobe
Correct
quote:
while Kobe was better in certain aspects of the game than Lebron.
I would love to hear them. Free throw shooting is a given.
quote:
Both are champions. Both deserve mention when discussing the greats. One doesn't have to tear one down to build up the other.
Saying a great is better than another great is not tearing anyone down. That actually seems like a base, simplistic way to think about things...
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