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Message
re: Ranking Lebron's place in history
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:39 am to RonBurgundy
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:39 am to RonBurgundy
quote:
Yeah it is
How?
Lebron is a career 28 and 7 guy on offense.
And again, that's taking into account he is doing it in a league that averages 96ppg while Magic was in a league that averaged 110ppg. Not just team, the entire league.
quote:Well of course he would succeedd.
Magic skill set would succeed in any era
But how can you argue that his numbers would go up, again, in a league with 10 less possessions per game, and collectively shooting 4% worse? Those are HUGE margins.
Yes, there are better outside shooters now. But there are also a lot of teams that play defense, unlike in the 80s, as the numbers show.
1
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:39 am to treble hook
Robertson, Chamberlain, and Bird are considered to be 3 of the top 10-12 players ever and they have 6 championships combined between them.
If LeBron wins 2-3, he will finish in the top 10 easily.
If LeBron wins 2-3, he will finish in the top 10 easily.
This post was edited on 6/21/12 at 9:41 am
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:42 am to Louie T
quote:
Robertson, Chamberlain
I always try to preface modern era because:
1. I've never watched an entire game of either of those guys play.
2. Based on the numbers, the game was so unbelievably different in terms of pace/lack of defense, and also factoring in #1 for me, there is just no way for me to make a comparison that isn't just a complete/random guess.
quote:
If LeBron wins 2-3, he will finish in the top 10 easily
I try my best to not even get into the rings thing, because every player is the same whether they have a fist full of rings or not, IMO. Jordan would have still been Jordan if he slummed in Milwaukee his entire career with no help and never won a ring or somehow managed to win 1.
This post was edited on 6/21/12 at 9:44 am
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:43 am to shel311
I was just shutting down the "he's gotta win at least 5 championships before he can be considered great" type stuff he was saying.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:49 am to Louie T
quote:
If LeBron wins 2-3, he will finish in the top 10 easily
Yea top 10 I agree if he wins 2 to 3.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:49 am to RonBurgundy
quote:
Magic skill set would succeed in any era and if the game has better shooters now (as it is being claimed) his numbers only go up. Also, if Magic was privy to today's coaching and training that LeBron is he'd be even more dominant than he was.
I agree with all of this. Magic would dominate in ANY era.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:51 am to dukke v
quote:Yes, that I don't disagree with.
I agree with all of this. Magic would dominate in ANY era.
But his numbers wouldn't be as good in this era, simply based on he would have less possessions to do so, players who don't shoot as high a %, and therefore, teams that score 14 points less per game.
His numbers would still be historically dominant and he wouldn't be any less good. That's not my argument.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:51 am to shel311
quote:
my best to not even get into the rings thing, because every player is the same whether they have a fist full of rings or not, IMO. Jordan would have still been Jordan if he slummed in Milwaukee his entire career with no help and never won a ring or somehow managed to win 1.
No way in hell. Part of what made Jordan so geat was that he won 6 championships with no center. Sure he would've been damn good but I don't think he would be considered the undisputed GOAT as he is now.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:52 am to shel311
quote:
How?
Lebron is a career 28 and 7 guy on offense.
You are talking numbers which is measurable, I'm talking skill set. Magic's skill set below the rim is superior. Better post player,better at running half court,better vision, better in transition, more creative offensive mind, better penetrator, better ball handler. The basketball might as well have been a third hand on Magic Johnson.The gap is big here.
quote:
But how can you argue that his numbers would go up, again, in a league with 10 less possessions per game, and collectively shooting 4% worse?
You realize that if Magic couldn't be touched on the perimeter how often he'd get to the line nowadays? With his size he'd kill todays points guards in his athletic prime.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:55 am to treble hook
quote:
No way in hell. Part of what made Jordan so geat was that he won 6 championships with no center. Sure he would've been damn good but I don't think he would be considered the undisputed GOAT as he is now.
I'm not talking about what people "consider", I'm talking about how it should be, of course that is just in my opinion.
I'll try it a different way. Just play this hypothetical with me. THe Bulls never draft Pippen, instead they take some guy who is a bust, and subsequently never get another really good player along with MJ.
Now here's my question to you: Not what people think, what you think here, how many titles does MJ win, and more importantly, is he ANy less of a player?
He's the same guy.
This post was edited on 6/21/12 at 9:55 am
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:57 am to RonBurgundy
quote:But skill set can be seen in the numbers.
You are talking numbers which is measurable, I'm talking skill set
quote:
Magic's skill set below the rim is superior. Better post player,better at running half court,better vision, better in transition, more creative offensive mind, better penetrator, better ball handler. The basketball might as well have been a third hand on Magic Johnson.The gap is big here.
Again, all that can be seen in the data. The data says Lebron is a career 28/7 guy. The data also says Magic is phenomenal on offense, but it's certainly not worlds better than 28/7, IMO.
quote:
You realize that if Magic couldn't be touched on the perimeter how often he'd get to the line nowadays?
Guys didn't play defense in those days. They just didn't. Like I said, if you get a chance to watch a game from back then, take it. It is amazing how little defense is played collectively league wide. Like I said, this can be seen in the numbers leaguewide. Defense as a whole is much better now, hand checking or not.
And also, if we're switching roles, Lebron is averaging 35/10 on offense in Magic's days.
This post was edited on 6/21/12 at 9:59 am
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:59 am to shel311
quote:
l try it a different way. Just play this hypothetical with me. THe Bulls never draft Pippen, instead they take some guy who is a bust, and subsequently never get another really good player along with MJ.
Now here's my question to you: Not what people think, what you think here, how many titles does MJ win, and more importantly, is he ANy less of a player?
He's the same guy.
Very true. In basketball though, considering 1 player makes up 20% of your offense and defense,the ability to win a championship carries more weight, fair or not, than a great player in football where they need to be a part of a great team.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 9:59 am to shel311
quote:
I'll try it a different way. Just play this hypothetical with me. THe Bulls never draft Pippen, instead they take some guy who is a bust, and subsequently never get another really good player along with MJ.
They win two titles. MAYBE.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:01 am to dukke v
quote:
They win two titles. MAYBE
IN your opinion of MJ as a basketball player, is he then not as good?
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:03 am to shel311
quote:
IN your opinion of MJ as a basketball player, is he then not as good?
MJ was pretty awesome before Pippen got there. And he would have still been a beast. Just without as many titles.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:04 am to RonBurgundy
quote:This is a fair point, that i do agree with.
In basketball though, considering 1 player makes up 20% of your offense and defense,the ability to win a championship carries more weight, fair or not, than a great player in football where they need to be a part of a great team
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:04 am to shel311
In comparing Magic to Lebron, you keep pointing out Lebron's superior defensive skills. You then go on to make statements like:
I don't think it's fair to say Lebron is a better offensive player than Magic (in part b/c he would score more in the 80's NBA) while saying he is clearly a better defender when he plays in an era where defense is clearly emphasized. Maybe Magic is nearly as good a defender as Lebron, but didn't showcase it because of the mindset of the league during his prime.
quote:
Guys didn't play defense in those days. They just didn't. Like I said, if you get a chance to watch a game from back then, take it. It is amazing how little defense is played collectively league wide. Like I said, this can be seen in the numbers leaguewide. Defense as a whole is much better now, hand checking or not.
I don't think it's fair to say Lebron is a better offensive player than Magic (in part b/c he would score more in the 80's NBA) while saying he is clearly a better defender when he plays in an era where defense is clearly emphasized. Maybe Magic is nearly as good a defender as Lebron, but didn't showcase it because of the mindset of the league during his prime.
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:05 am to dukke v
quote:
MJ was pretty awesome before Pippen got there. And he would have still been a beast. Just without as many titles.
So, titles are vastly overvalued then, no?
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:05 am to shel311
quote:
Again, all that can be seen in the data.
no that can't be.The data doesn't show the difference in Stockton's skill set to Mark Jackson's only output.
quote:
Guys didn't play defense in those days. They just didn't. Like I said, if you get a chance to watch a game from back then, take it. It is amazing how little defense is played collectively league wide. Like I said, this can be seen in the numbers leaguewide. Defense as a whole is much better now, hand checking or not.
I have watched plenty of basketball from back then and you are missing what I am saying; with contact not allowed on the perimeter today Magic Johnson average 12 FTA a game. The guy would be triple teamed immediatley inside the three point line. Defense is better, I am aware of that, but if small guards can dominate the game and win MVPs despite little to none offensive creativity(comparatively), the GOAT PG would dominate a guard favored league like we haven't seen before.
This post was edited on 6/21/12 at 10:08 am
Posted on 6/21/12 at 10:08 am to ChiSaint
quote:Well if he didn't showcase it, it didn't happen. It doesn't matter how good you could have been, all that matters is what actually happens on the court.
Maybe Magic is nearly as good a defender as Lebron, but didn't showcase it because of the mindset of the league during his prime.
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