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re: Why are 401k platforms so far behind other retirement plans?

Posted on 7/29/16 at 10:50 am to
Posted by NYNolaguy1
Member since May 2011
20870 posts
Posted on 7/29/16 at 10:50 am to
quote:

Why does my vanguard total stock fund in my 401k have a 1.07 expense ratio



Does Vanguard operate your 401k? I have a whole lot of VFINX and the expense ratio is .017%.
Posted by LSURussian
Member since Feb 2005
126962 posts
Posted on 7/29/16 at 11:12 am to
quote:

my guess is you are a fricking moron

You can't read, just as I suspected.

Your own link says:
quote:

For starters, most 401(k) plans are bundled and lumped together with administrative fees and expenses charged by the funds in the plan.

The 401(k) vendor (mutual fund firms, brokerage houses or insurance companies) controls the investment options available in the plan.

And then the quote you posted is the next paragraph:
quote:

Mutual fund companies often pay a kickback (euphemistically called "revenue sharing") to be included as an investment option. Most index funds, exchange-traded funds and passively managed funds don't pay revenue sharing, so including them would require the company to kick in some cash to cover the overhead.
But you left out the next line:
quote:

The primary beneficiaries of this cozy system are the mutual fund companies charging high fees for their actively managed funds.

The "company" mentioned in your quote is the company setting up the plan, i.e., the mutual fund, broker or insurance company setting the investment options, not the employer which sponsors the plan for its employees.

A mutual fund company, broker or insurance company which sets up a plan might tell the employer "we'll manage your plan for free, no fees." They can do that because they are getting paid their fees from the expense ratio embedded in the mutual fund. They are legally allowed to do that.

The employer, by law, cannot receive money from the plan's assets. That would be a violation of ERISA.

ETA: The only exception is the plan administrator (the employer) may be reimbursed for "reasonable" fees it has to pay to keep the plan operating. That is explained in the Department of Labor link I posted in my previous post in this thread. It is the plan administrators legal responsibility under ERISA to monitor the plan's fees to make sure they are "reasonable."

Again, if you know of an employer receiving money from a plan, report it to the DOL. You're get a whistle-blower reward for doing so.
This post was edited on 7/29/16 at 11:26 am
Posted by Maderan
Member since Feb 2005
806 posts
Posted on 7/29/16 at 12:57 pm to
401(k) accounts are typically different than individual IRA or SEP accounts (unless you have a brokerage window option).

There is usually only one trust account for the entire plan including all the investments for all of the participants. Then there is a software system (called a daily valuation system) that keeps track of the fractional ownership of the trust account for each participant.

Makes administration more expensive for pretty much everything in a 401(k).
Posted by TigerDeBaiter
Member since Dec 2010
10257 posts
Posted on 7/29/16 at 12:59 pm to
quote:

A mutual fund company, broker or insurance company which sets up a plan might tell the employer "we'll manage your plan for free, no fees." They can do that because they are getting paid their fees from the expense ratio embedded in the mutual fund. They are legally allowed to do that.


This is what I was saying the whole time.
Posted by Hawkeye95
Member since Dec 2013
20293 posts
Posted on 7/29/16 at 1:49 pm to
quote:

A mutual fund company, broker or insurance company which sets up a plan might tell the employer "we'll manage your plan for free, no fees." They can do that because they are getting paid their fees from the expense ratio embedded in the mutual fund. They are legally allowed to do that.

So you are saying I am right? The company gets something for free that would normally have to pay for, by charging 401k participants higher management fees.

This to me is a kickback.
Posted by Iowa Golfer
Heaven
Member since Dec 2013
10229 posts
Posted on 7/29/16 at 2:15 pm to
I'm not sure how 401K's work, but on my SIMPLE IRA, the employees can choose to go anywhere they want. IIRC, I had thought the advisor that does this for me said that's by law.

We don't encourage them to do this, becuase it creates more work, but we let them know they have this option.
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