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Message
re: Since the topic of Coach O being a good coach won't go away, I'll throw in my 2 cents
Posted on 10/20/17 at 10:41 am to Tiger_n_ATL
Posted on 10/20/17 at 10:41 am to Tiger_n_ATL
quote:
which they did repeatedly, over several years.
Care to list a few?? Did O's team not throw in the towel against State??
This post was edited on 10/20/17 at 10:42 am
0
Posted on 10/20/17 at 10:47 am to cbtullis
quote:
So then he asked me what it's going to take.
This really ought to be an easy answer for anyone being honest with themselves.
1) Win at a higher rate than his predecessor. One way or the other, this entire project is about winning games that will ultimately bring titles...SECW, SEC and National. Both Saban and Miles did both...multiple times. He needs to at least do what his predecessor did.
2) Based on the grousing over the past few years, style is apparently part of it as well. It's not enough to just win a lot, but we need to win in an entertaining fashion...and that means exciting offense with a dynamic QB. Our defense has been exciting for a while, but Miles lacked an offense that was exciting...so he needs that.
3) Beat BAMA 50% of the time. When LSU's program is humming, we can stand toe to toe with them and we ought to split those games. Expecting more is asking too much, but accepting less is not holding the program to high enough standards.
4) Do all the above with new coordinators. Keep in mind..."The Orgeron System" is one that assumes that he's a "success" because he's the CEO and hires the best coordinators to do the dirty work of coaching each side of the ball. Canada is his hire but Aranda is not, though he takes credit for retaining him. But we were sold on "The System" working because we'd always have the best coordinators...so when our current guys move on (as the best always do) he needs to hire the best again AND win again...because he he can't win with the new guys, then "The System" doesn't work.
Now...if you say to yourself, "Self...that's a pretty big mountain to climb!" Yep...it is, but that's what we all agreed to expect when we supported making the change from Miles to ANYONE ELSE. Anything equal to or less than the previous coach's level of success and there was no reason to overturn the program in order to do it. Anything less than that PLUS continues success AFTER a coordinator change and "The System" will be shown to have failed.
Orgeron could be seen as a failure as early as this season...but not seen as any real success using the above for many seasons to come. And again...that's using the Miles' criteria for judging a coach. Even after 2007, many LSU fans were still calling him Larry Coker. If you're being honest with yourself, suddenly declaring Orgeron a success after a year or two is severely moving the goal posts to judge him in a FAR more kind light than his predecessor got.
Posted on 10/20/17 at 10:50 am to Tiger_n_ATL
quote:
Tank the season after an Alabama loss year after year
It's hard to tell if people like you are just stupid, dishonest, or delusional.
Miles record after Bama in his last five full seasons was 11-3. He was undefeated after Bama in 2011, 12, and 13.
Obviously you're talking about losing to Ark in 2014 and Ark and OM in 2015. Were those frustrating games? Of course.
Was the team "tanking"?? No. Especially not "year after year" like this was some chronic epidemic the entire time Saban was there.
In both of those years the team rallied to beat A&M, so clearly the team didn't "tank the season".
Clearly you idiots just used those three games as confirmation bias for a belief youve held onto for years since Tennessee 05, OM 09, or 1/9/12. Regardless, it makes you look like a clown to anyone with even a shred of perspective.
Honestly, not even sure why I bother. I guess I just can't tolerate fools well.
This post was edited on 10/20/17 at 11:03 am
Posted on 10/20/17 at 10:58 am to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
GeauxTigerTM
Posted on 10/20/17 at 11:04 am to cbtullis
10 wins? This is not a rebuild. O told last year's team the goal was the playoffs for 2017. Suddenly everybody acts like we're in a rebuilding phase and he needs time. I even heard O himself say recently that with a couple great recruiting classes we can begin to look at a NC. What? When have we had a bad recruiting class recently? Totally rewriting the narrative.
I'm hoping and pulling for big wins but I feel like we may see some nice wins coupled with some head scratching losses. Just like we've seen thus far. That may become the norm.
I'm hoping and pulling for big wins but I feel like we may see some nice wins coupled with some head scratching losses. Just like we've seen thus far. That may become the norm.
This post was edited on 10/20/17 at 11:06 am
Posted on 10/20/17 at 11:22 am to RedTigerRulz
quote:
Shows you know exactly jack shite about that situation. Miles was let go because he lied about changing the offense and was stubborn as a jackass...thus, the program was sliding.
Can someone produce audio or a written piece where Miles said he was going to change the offense? I think this is just something that's parroted but isn't really supported by fact.
Posted on 10/20/17 at 11:48 am to cbtullis
A coach and his his program are years in the making only little kids wake up and expect it to be Christmas !
Posted on 10/20/17 at 12:09 pm to cra_cra
quote:
And for the money, and what other coaches were asking for, I think it was the right business move... with a short leash.
There are 12 million reasons that disagree with that statement.
And if we had to pony up for the highest paid OC/DC tandem, was it STILL a good business move?
This post was edited on 10/20/17 at 12:11 pm
Posted on 10/20/17 at 12:20 pm to INFIDEL
If Miles was not considered mediocre at the end of his tenure, then the problem was he was certainly trending that way. His HIGHLY talented teams lost a minimum of 3 SEC games in each of his final 3 full seasons and he had already lost 2 games (1 non-SEC) in his short start of 2016.
The passing offense was consistently ranked in below 100 of approx 120 teams, and even the special teams play dropped to that level at the end.
And this is certainly no endorsement for CEO. For the record, I’m watching with a highly pessimistic wait-and-see attitude.
The passing offense was consistently ranked in below 100 of approx 120 teams, and even the special teams play dropped to that level at the end.
And this is certainly no endorsement for CEO. For the record, I’m watching with a highly pessimistic wait-and-see attitude.
This post was edited on 10/20/17 at 12:24 pm
Posted on 10/20/17 at 12:25 pm to LSUwag
quote:
I'm not trying to be a dick but, your measures of success aren't realistic.
Why is it not realistic? This is basically what Les Miles did every year. Miles was fired and replaced with Orgeron, why shouldn't we expect and demand at least the same results or better?
Posted on 10/20/17 at 12:28 pm to BayouBengal99
quote:
here we are, 5-2 with still everything in front of them to play for. Nothing is actually lost.
SEC West is still in play.
But for the record:
Playoff shot is lost.
Near 50-game home non-con win streak is lost.
And certainly a whole lot of pride and respectability was lost after the Troy game.
Posted on 10/20/17 at 12:35 pm to Tiger_n_ATL
quote:
That's the biggest difference in an O coached team and a Les Miles coached team. Hate him if you will, but O's teams do not throw in the towel like Les's teams did - which they did repeatedly, over several years.
I assume this was intended to be ironic.
This post was edited on 10/20/17 at 1:04 pm
Posted on 10/20/17 at 12:53 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
Can someone produce audio or a written piece where Miles said he was going to change the offense? I think this is just something that's parroted but isn't really supported by fact.
You people are intentionally stupid.
Posted on 10/20/17 at 1:10 pm to geauxjo
quote:
What? When have we had a bad recruiting class recently? Totally rewriting the narrative.
The reality is if past recruiting classes were as good as their initial rankings 20 freshmen wouldn't be playing AND some upperclassmen would look highly competitive in games instead of mediocre. Recruiting rankings are not accurate until the class is 3 years into a program. Plus you had Miles picking up skill guys right and left yet losing talent on OL/DL with no credible talent replacement his last few years.
Posted on 10/20/17 at 1:12 pm to RedTigerRulz
quote:
You people are intentionally stupid.
So I'm guessing you don't have the audio or the article?
Posted on 10/20/17 at 1:37 pm to tirebiter
quote:
some upperclassmen would look highly competitive
That's part of O's job. To prepare these guys to be competitive. You know, the head coaching job he wanted so badly and got partly by convincing everyone that this wasn't a rebuild but instead simply about moving forward toward championships.
This post was edited on 10/20/17 at 4:39 pm
Posted on 10/20/17 at 2:21 pm to GeauxTigerTM
quote:
This really ought to be an easy answer for anyone being honest with themselves.
1) Win at a higher rate than his predecessor. One way or the other, this entire project is about winning games that will ultimately bring titles...SECW, SEC and National. Both Saban and Miles did both...multiple times. He needs to at least do what his predecessor did.
2) Based on the grousing over the past few years, style is apparently part of it as well. It's not enough to just win a lot, but we need to win in an entertaining fashion...and that means exciting offense with a dynamic QB. Our defense has been exciting for a while, but Miles lacked an offense that was exciting...so he needs that.
3) Beat BAMA 50% of the time. When LSU's program is humming, we can stand toe to toe with them and we ought to split those games. Expecting more is asking too much, but accepting less is not holding the program to high enough standards.
4) Do all the above with new coordinators. Keep in mind..."The Orgeron System" is one that assumes that he's a "success" because he's the CEO and hires the best coordinators to do the dirty work of coaching each side of the ball. Canada is his hire but Aranda is not, though he takes credit for retaining him. But we were sold on "The System" working because we'd always have the best coordinators...so when our current guys move on (as the best always do) he needs to hire the best again AND win again...because he he can't win with the new guys, then "The System" doesn't work.
Now...if you say to yourself, "Self...that's a pretty big mountain to climb!" Yep...it is, but that's what we all agreed to expect when we supported making the change from Miles to ANYONE ELSE. Anything equal to or less than the previous coach's level of success and there was no reason to overturn the program in order to do it. Anything less than that PLUS continues success AFTER a coordinator change and "The System" will be shown to have failed.
Orgeron could be seen as a failure as early as this season...but not seen as any real success using the above for many seasons to come. And again...that's using the Miles' criteria for judging a coach. Even after 2007, many LSU fans were still calling him Larry Coker. If you're being honest with yourself, suddenly declaring Orgeron a success after a year or two is severely moving the goal posts to judge him in a FAR more kind light than his predecessor got.
This is such a great post that I copied-n-pasted the entire thing. Wished I'd written it. Good work GeauxTigerTM.
Posted on 10/20/17 at 2:45 pm to Goldrush25
quote:
So I'm guessing you don't have the audio or the article?
Other than watching the games, do you follow LSU football at all?
Posted on 10/20/17 at 5:32 pm to RedTigerRulz
I rarely post, but I enjoy reading this site on a daily basis. I appreciate the passion of the fans here and the diversity of opinions. It amazes me that we can all watch the exact same game and yet see things so differently. It makes for a great and interesting forum. How much fun would it be if everyone agreed and this site was nothing but patting each other on the back.
I would like to pose a question. Is the only gauge of a successful coach wins and losses? Do we only rely on these 13 or so data points....at least in the first year or two? Does seeing the team grow and improve game to game have any value? If the Tigers come out prepared and play to the best of their ability, should that be a consideration at the end of the day? I think maybe it should. I can remember times in the past being happy that we won but not happy with the the first 59 minutes of the game....Blue Grass Miracle is a good example. And vice versa, I've seen some losses where I was proud of the effort and saw the team play as well as they can.....sometimes you just get beat....sometimes factors out of your control determine whether you are 10-3 or 8-5. If we are honest, LSU has won and lost games due to very questionable calls or circumstances (2010 LSU/Tennessee game). Yet, if only wins and losses are our gauge, the data is flawed.
I was not happy the the coaching hire, however, I am not ready to pass judgement. Time will tell.
I would like to pose a question. Is the only gauge of a successful coach wins and losses? Do we only rely on these 13 or so data points....at least in the first year or two? Does seeing the team grow and improve game to game have any value? If the Tigers come out prepared and play to the best of their ability, should that be a consideration at the end of the day? I think maybe it should. I can remember times in the past being happy that we won but not happy with the the first 59 minutes of the game....Blue Grass Miracle is a good example. And vice versa, I've seen some losses where I was proud of the effort and saw the team play as well as they can.....sometimes you just get beat....sometimes factors out of your control determine whether you are 10-3 or 8-5. If we are honest, LSU has won and lost games due to very questionable calls or circumstances (2010 LSU/Tennessee game). Yet, if only wins and losses are our gauge, the data is flawed.
I was not happy the the coaching hire, however, I am not ready to pass judgement. Time will tell.
Posted on 10/20/17 at 5:49 pm to geauxjo
quote:
10 wins? This is not a rebuild. O told last year's team the goal was the playoffs for 2017. Suddenly everybody acts like we're in a rebuilding phase and he needs time. I even heard O himself say recently that with a couple great recruiting classes we can begin to look at a NC. What? When have we had a bad recruiting class recently? Totally rewriting the narrative.
I'm hoping and pulling for big wins but I feel like we may see some nice wins coupled with some head scratching losses. Just like we've seen thus far. That may become the norm.
I was pretty much the lone wolf on this board for a while outlining why we going to go through a couple more down years. Too many gaps in the roster and depth is a significant issue. Furthermore, you have 2 true freshman QB's and it is not possible to change the culture of the recruitment of QB's until they see we are truly a changed team offensively. That takes time.
Thus, my narrative has been the same. This year and next are going to be tough, but by year 3, we should begin trending up and become championship caliber. Next year, we nave NO RB. We will be breaking in a QB. And, there will still be gaps in the roster (though not to the degree of this year).
If O can get a top 5 class this year (and that's a big if), I think we become an elite program in year 3.... assuming we keep Aranda, and keep a good OC.
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