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re: Final Miles analysis: Pumpers vs Negatigers
Posted on 9/27/16 at 2:57 am to Open Your Eyes
Posted on 9/27/16 at 2:57 am to Open Your Eyes
quote:
Where is Lsu ranked right now, when miles left? Not in the top 25? Oh ok, that's what I thought.
My god you have really missed my point.
1 season of ranking doesnt make you that type of program.
0
Posted on 9/27/16 at 2:59 am to League Champs
Youre using more than 5 years under miles and just years for saban.
Saban's tenure =16 losses 12 conf losss
Miles last 5 full seasons= 15 losses 1w conf losses.
Saban has 2 top 16 finishes in his 5 years.
Miles has 4.
Youre an idiot if you cant see this.
Saban's tenure =16 losses 12 conf losss
Miles last 5 full seasons= 15 losses 1w conf losses.
Saban has 2 top 16 finishes in his 5 years.
Miles has 4.
Youre an idiot if you cant see this.
This post was edited on 9/27/16 at 3:00 am
Posted on 9/27/16 at 3:14 am to Big Scrub TX
I would say that, in the final analysis, Les' ultimate dismissal and the program's descent into the middle of the pack in the SEC do not vindicate those that wanted to fire Miles between 2005 - 2010. I flip-flopped on it multiple times.
"We should have won more games with the talent we had..." is a common refrain, but the amount of games we won and the talent we had are inseparable results of...the management and coaching of this team. Great athletes/recruits don't just turn into great NFL players.
On an individual level, Les was able to coax the best out of some guys, and less out of others. But in the aggregate we were a giant funnel of talent into the NFL because our players were soundly coached and taught on an individual level.
What Les had a problem with, IMO, was the big picture stuff on the field. He had trouble seeing how the pieces fit together. To use the hackneyed but ol' reliable car analogy, he had performance parts to build a F1 racer, but somehow we often ended up with a souped-up go-kart instead.
I think that explained some of our offensive struggles over the years; we struggled to play complementary football because guys were not sure how to interact with each other on the field to paper over each others' mistakes.
For all the ink that has been spilled on why Saban is so great, one of the top reasons is because he has the vision for this big picture, and he knows how to use his guys' strengths to hide weaknesses and stop them from being exploited. Les simply struggled with this.
Most obviously of all, the clock and game management foibles are well-documented, and are really the most indefensible shortcoming Les had. I think those fit in with the fact that he did not see "the big picture" on the field and couldn't really visualize how important the clock or the situation was to the eventual result. Perhaps his wild early success blinded him to this? That's arguable, but you'll hear no defense from me for this aspect of his game. He just sucked at the situational awareness aspect of coaching.
It became clear that the strengths Les leaned on began to fade in 2014, and I think most agreed the time had come at the end of last season. I would have loved for him to go out on his players' shoulders in front of a roaring crowd, and we no doubt fricked that up.
But I think other than that, he was here for just about the appropriate amount of time, and that both sides of the Les argument actually had good, defensible arguments, which speaks to how goofy and wild his tenure was.
"We should have won more games with the talent we had..." is a common refrain, but the amount of games we won and the talent we had are inseparable results of...the management and coaching of this team. Great athletes/recruits don't just turn into great NFL players.
On an individual level, Les was able to coax the best out of some guys, and less out of others. But in the aggregate we were a giant funnel of talent into the NFL because our players were soundly coached and taught on an individual level.
What Les had a problem with, IMO, was the big picture stuff on the field. He had trouble seeing how the pieces fit together. To use the hackneyed but ol' reliable car analogy, he had performance parts to build a F1 racer, but somehow we often ended up with a souped-up go-kart instead.
I think that explained some of our offensive struggles over the years; we struggled to play complementary football because guys were not sure how to interact with each other on the field to paper over each others' mistakes.
For all the ink that has been spilled on why Saban is so great, one of the top reasons is because he has the vision for this big picture, and he knows how to use his guys' strengths to hide weaknesses and stop them from being exploited. Les simply struggled with this.
Most obviously of all, the clock and game management foibles are well-documented, and are really the most indefensible shortcoming Les had. I think those fit in with the fact that he did not see "the big picture" on the field and couldn't really visualize how important the clock or the situation was to the eventual result. Perhaps his wild early success blinded him to this? That's arguable, but you'll hear no defense from me for this aspect of his game. He just sucked at the situational awareness aspect of coaching.
It became clear that the strengths Les leaned on began to fade in 2014, and I think most agreed the time had come at the end of last season. I would have loved for him to go out on his players' shoulders in front of a roaring crowd, and we no doubt fricked that up.
But I think other than that, he was here for just about the appropriate amount of time, and that both sides of the Les argument actually had good, defensible arguments, which speaks to how goofy and wild his tenure was.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 4:33 am to Big Scrub TX
You know, the national media, and fans everywhere, question the rationale of firing the most successful coach in school history. It's not just a handfull of delusional LSU fans.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 5:42 am to Rickdaddy4188
quote:
Youre using more than 5 years under miles and just years for saban.
Saban's tenure =16 losses 12 conf losss
Miles last 5 full seasons= 15 losses 1w conf losses.
Saban has 2 top 16 finishes in his 5 years.
Miles has 4.
Hes right. Youre wrong
You don't get to throw out this year, like it never happened. You felt he deserved to finish this year, so deal with his mediocre numbers too. Its the reason he got fired. He has 2 losses this year, 1 of those is an SEC loss.
Miles also had 2 years in 5 that he was unranked, and like he said with likely losses against Ole Miss, Arky, and Bama this year gets a whole lot worse for Miles over that 5 year span. Its you that are giving Miles credit for 2011, which actually falls outside the last 5 years.
Sorry, but youre not entitled to your own set of facts
2012
2013
2014
2015
2016
That's 5 years
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:41 am to RobbBobb
quote:
Hes right. Youre wrong
You don't get to throw out this year, like it never happened. You felt he deserved to finish this year, so deal with his mediocre numbers too. Its the reason he got fired. He has 2 losses this year, 1 of those is an SEC loss.
No im not wrong.
You use full years.
The last 5 full seasons under Miles have a better win loss record than Saban's tenure at lsu. Thats a fact . Deal with it.
quote:
Miles also had 2 years in 5 that he was unranked
No he doesnt. We finished top 16 2011,2012,2013&2015.
Saban had 2 top 15 finishes in his time at lsu.
Saban also coached in a sec west that was shite compared to now.
In 2001 the 2nd place west team was 7-5.
During Saban's tenure at lsu he faced 1 SEC WEST TEAM WITH 10 WINS. LET THAT SINK IN. the sec west was so weak that in his 5 years at lsu he only faced 1 west team with 10 or more wins
This post was edited on 9/27/16 at 9:46 am
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:43 am to Rickdaddy4188
quote:
Saban's tenure =16 losses 12 conf losss
Miles last 5 full seasons= 15 losses 1w conf losses.
Rick when are you going to stop with this shite? Jesus Christ.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:44 am to Big Scrub TX
I would have no problem with claiming the 2011 title, seeing as how we defeated every opponent on our schedule, including Bama at their place.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:45 am to S
quote:
Rick when are you going to stop with this shite? Jesus Christ.
I guess when football ignorant posters stop saying how shite our program is compared to Saban's tenure. It's telling when someone says they are tired of facts.
I responded to a poster. I didn't just post the stats for no reason.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:47 am to Big Scrub TX
quote:
Pumpers vs Negatigers
I'm just hoping that we can finally lay these over-used terms to rest.
We're all Tigers.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:49 am to 75helpmacpack
quote:
The pumpers at Tennessee, Nebraska, USC, Georgia, Texas-et al, lost as well... what a plethora of victories and NC those schools have amassed since they fired their winningn coach. There is that old adage - "be careful what you wish for"...
I would rather stir things up and maybe we come out clean than stir in mediocrity until the end of time.
I think this is the great philosophical divide thats been going on between "positigers" and "negatigers" over the Less Smiles era. Theres also the "LSU recruits itself" vs. "Less Smiles recruits" debate that isnt discussed enough and is also a big difference between the two groups.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:52 am to Rickdaddy4188
Well, for the 69,093rd time, look at the program in 2000 coming off consecutive losing seasons. Look at it in 2005, then again in your infamous "last five full seasons." Give mevthe five year period with a national title, two SECs, two west titles, and a transition from dark days of DiNardo into a new era versus the period with zero national titles, one sec, one west, all while the program slides down a slope towards an area just above mediocrity. You say people "shite on" the program for criticizing the last five years, then you turn around and "shite on" the 2001 team that got this era started.
Go lay down and drink a glass of warm milk or something dude.
Go lay down and drink a glass of warm milk or something dude.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:54 am to Big Scrub TX
Your post is exactly what was always wrong with negatigers. They speak in absolutes. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.
Miles got fired exactly when he should have been fired, give or take a few months. Any earlier would have been a mistake.
If the negatigers got their way we would have been in trouble. The media would be killing us and no coach worth anything would have come into a situation where you average 10 wins a year with a recent trip to the National championship game and get fired. Hell, the media is still fairly divided about firing him when we did.
Negatigers did not win. Positives did not win, although they were a little bit more right.
Nobody wins when the program suffers. But the future may be bright, all depends on who we get. And we might find out if any monkey can really run this program better than Miles like so many of his detractors claim.
Miles got fired exactly when he should have been fired, give or take a few months. Any earlier would have been a mistake.
If the negatigers got their way we would have been in trouble. The media would be killing us and no coach worth anything would have come into a situation where you average 10 wins a year with a recent trip to the National championship game and get fired. Hell, the media is still fairly divided about firing him when we did.
Negatigers did not win. Positives did not win, although they were a little bit more right.
Nobody wins when the program suffers. But the future may be bright, all depends on who we get. And we might find out if any monkey can really run this program better than Miles like so many of his detractors claim.
This post was edited on 9/27/16 at 9:58 am
Posted on 9/27/16 at 9:57 am to MountainTiger
quote:
I'm just hoping that we can finally lay these over-used terms to rest.
That won't happen. The negatigers have always been here. They were here during Saban's time as well. They aren't happy with anything.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:04 am to S
quote:
Well, for the 69,093rd time, look at the program in 2000 coming off consecutive losing seasons.
We had 2 straight 10 win seasons in 96&97.
quote:
Give mevthe five year period with a national title, two SECs, two west titles, and a transition from dark days of DiNardo into a new era versus the period with zero national titles, one sec, one west,
So sec titles are ok with 3 losses? Are you saying miles would still be here if the west was as shitty as it was under saban? If miles coached in a sec west where 3 losses won the west would he still be here?
quote:
Give mevthe five year period with a national title, two SECs, two west titles, and a transition from dark days of DiNardo into a new era versus the period with zero national titles, one sec, one west, all while the program slides down a slope towards an area just above mediocrity
What math are you using where 16th or lower out of 126 teams is slightly above mediocre.
It amazing how 16th under miles is grounds for termination but 16th inder saban somehow means we are a top 5 program.
quote:
You say people "shite on" the program for criticizing the last five years, then you turn around and "shite on" the 2001 team that got this era started.
Wait. Are you saying posting FACTS about 2001 is shitting on the program?
So posting facts about miles' last 5 years is considered defending miles YET stating FACTS about Saban's tenure is considered shitting on the program? Wow.
Our wins and losses and final rankings of the Saban era are in no way shitting on the program. Its reality.
Its not shitting on Saban to say he never faced a sec program that even made it to the National title game let alone won it. Thats a fact.
Its not shitting on Saban to say the west was no where near as difficult as it is now. During his 5 years tenure at lsu he played 1 west team that won at least 10 games.
In 2006 alone Miles faced more 10 win west teams than saban did throughout his entire time at lsu.
Hell Miles faced multiple 10 win west teams in 6 of his 11 seasons.
This post was edited on 9/27/16 at 10:09 am
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:07 am to nola000
quote:
Theres also the "LSU recruits itself" vs. "Less Smiles recruits" debate that isnt discussed enough and is also a big difference between the two groups.
It was discussed for 3 pages in this thread. Miles was great recruiter at OSU and was a great recruiter for lsu.
Anyone that denies Miles' ability to recruit should be ignored during further cfb discussions. There are plenty of real flaws Miles has without making shite up and denying his elite recruiting,
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:10 am to Rickdaddy4188
quote:
Miles was great recruiter at OSU
no he wasn't
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:36 am to Rickdaddy4188
I've always been a bit of a pumper but for different reasons than most of what is posted on here...my fear of falling into the abyss that so many teams have in the past when they get rid of a successful coach...
The Tenn, Nebraskas, Miami examples are very scary...it is really hard to recover and some programs never get back to an elite level.
I was ready for Les to go but the pumped vs nega debate will not be settled until after the next 5 yrs...and if that coach is less successful than Les than the negas have lost.
The Tenn, Nebraskas, Miami examples are very scary...it is really hard to recover and some programs never get back to an elite level.
I was ready for Les to go but the pumped vs nega debate will not be settled until after the next 5 yrs...and if that coach is less successful than Les than the negas have lost.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:36 am to noonan
quote:
Your post is exactly what was always wrong with negatigers. They speak in absolutes. The truth is always somewhere in the middle.
I went out of my way to talk about the in-betweens. quote:
If the negatigers got their way we would have been in trouble. The media would be killing us and no coach worth anything would have come into a situation where you average 10 wins a year with a recent trip to the National championship game and get fired. Hell, the media is still fairly divided about firing him when we did.
Nah. It would be a coveted position no matter what.
quote:
Nobody wins when the program suffers.
Agreed. Most of all, the players.
Posted on 9/27/16 at 10:42 am to Topwater Trout
quote:
no he wasn't
Yes he was. Youve already been proven wrong. From 1987-2002 they had 1 winning season. Miles brought that horrible program to 2 straight top 25 recruiting classes. Youre just flat wrong.
Youre, literally, the only poster that doesnt admit miles is an elite recruiter. That should tell you something. Even the biggest miles hater admits he is a top 5 recruiter.
Only someone with minimal football knowledge thinks programs recruit themselves. Its shows ignorance to think program recruit themselves.
This post was edited on 9/27/16 at 10:46 am
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