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re: Is there a worse recruiter in major college basketball than Trent Johnson?
Posted on 10/18/11 at 6:59 pm to PortCityMadMan
Posted on 10/18/11 at 6:59 pm to PortCityMadMan
What about Darryl Milburn? 4* star recruit from baton rouge and he doesn't have an offer or been to LSU for a visit
1
Posted on 10/18/11 at 7:04 pm to cowboy4ever
Trent doesn't seem to like him for some reason. I've never really heard anything linking him to LSU. He says he's considering LSU, but he doesn't appear to be on LSU's radar.
Posted on 10/18/11 at 8:19 pm to Bubba Hotep
i was hoping they'd go after qualls because he's just such a damn good athlete. but like i said, he seems to be a mike anderson prototype maybe a poor man's demarre carroll type in that system.
if gathers decommitts from st john's i think he'll be at texas imo, but i guess we can hope.
i think they'll end up with troy jones, hopefully sanchez and hopefully there are other irons in the fire like that kid from pennsylvania i haven't heard much about recently.
if gathers decommitts from st john's i think he'll be at texas imo, but i guess we can hope.
i think they'll end up with troy jones, hopefully sanchez and hopefully there are other irons in the fire like that kid from pennsylvania i haven't heard much about recently.
Posted on 10/18/11 at 9:11 pm to macaoidh
Quite honestly, I think TJ struggles to recruit well because he doesn't cheat.
Posted on 10/18/11 at 9:40 pm to GeorgeTheGreek
Kinda off topic but actually started this e-mail thread with some friends last week so wanted to see what people thought.
LSU Football and Baseball are held to a different standard than LSU basketball. Why do you think that is? What would it take for basketball to be held to the same standard?
On the same note why do you think LSU basketball has not been able to sustain an upper level SEC basketball program?
LSU Football and Baseball are held to a different standard than LSU basketball. Why do you think that is? What would it take for basketball to be held to the same standard?
On the same note why do you think LSU basketball has not been able to sustain an upper level SEC basketball program?
Posted on 10/18/11 at 9:43 pm to PortCityMadMan
quote:
What would it take for basketball to be held to the same standard?
A national title
Posted on 10/18/11 at 10:48 pm to PortCityMadMan
Complete financial commitment on par with UK and Duke for basketball, which is where we are in football and basketball, relatively speaking.
Posted on 10/18/11 at 11:25 pm to saintsfan22
OK, there have been several points raised in this discussion and for that I'd like to thank the other posters.
I'd also like to address some of them (this is part 1)...
While I don't substantively disagree with this as an analysis of where things stand, it's a fairly damning indictment of Johnson's recruiting prowess. He's not in his first year; he's in his FOURTH. He's recruiting guys who presumably he's been working on since they were freshmen and sophomores in high school. The idea that you're three weeks from the signing period starting and all you can point to is one guy who's grown up a huge LSU fan all his life as an accomplishment, and then you're going to hold your scholarships until the spring to see whether you get fired or not - if that actually represents where we are in hoops recruiting, then we're already so far gone that there's little point in keeping Johnson.
Let's say he makes a turnaround of sorts and gets us to the NIT this year. I can't see an NCAA tournament coming off last season, but I'll say NIT.
How does that substantively upgrade the talent available to us? Bear in mind that you're probably only looking at 25-30 of the top 150 recruits in the country who will be available, and it doesn't look like any of those people have any current interest in LSU, so how likely is it that you can get any of them? What that means is you'll be out there trying to find not one Anthony Hickey (assuming he's actually good, which I sure hope he is) in the spring but FOUR of them. Lotsa luck there.
There is no way to spin this as good performance, or acceptable. We're attempting to make a virtue out of necessity and say it's smart not to recruit players when they're available because nobody good wants to come. Call me a pessimist, but that doesn't give me any encouragement.
The point is that it's three weeks from Signing Day and we have no indication he's in good shape with anybody but Malik Morgan. We don't even have any reports of in-demand players taking official visits here.
I don't think it's going out on a limb to say this doesn't look like success. It's apples and oranges, sure, but Les Miles doesn't keep us in suspense on 80 percent of his signing class three weeks from National Signing Day. And while I absolutely am not going to suggest that we need John Brady back here - I was excited as hell when that change was made - Brady's recruiting activity was always a lot more pronounced than this and his results were usually a hell of a lot better than what Trent has given us so far.
Is there any real indication we're going to close with Sanchez? If somebody could show me an article which legitimately links him with LSU I'd love to see it.
As for flipping Gathers, let's call that highly speculative. It would be kind to describe it in those terms. Just because he might not end up at St. John's doesn't mean he comes here. We've been recruiting him for three years and he's already rejected us. Maybe that changes, but anybody who's counting on it is a good bit more optimistic than I am.
As for the wing player, that'd be great. Who are we going to get? Does Country Day or St. Martin's have somebody good? Can anybody tell me who's a wing guy LSU has a real shot at right now? Who's a wing guy who's visited here?
And I'd point out you're still a man short even if the stars aligned and Trent managed all this.
Bubba, it's not that the names on our board aren't acceptable - it's that that board only represents people LSU is reported to have some interest in. Like you said, there's no news on any of these guys. Johnson has signed players before and there's usually an indication that, "yeah, I'm considering LSU" somewhere in the media before they commit here. Can you name one of these guys giving us that indication right now? I follow this stuff a decent bit and I can't.
Derenbecker and Dotson are gone, and so far we haven't committed anybody to replace them. And O'Bryant was LAST YEAR.
You've got to sign a Top 50 player every year if you want to compete on a high level. I'm saying Top 50, not the one-and-done McDonald's All-American types Kentucky signs. Top 50 means Big Baby, Brandon Bass, Tasmin Mitchell types (they were all McDonald's All-Americans, sure, but nobody considered them one-and-done guys). We haven't had too many of those in Louisiana lately, but we shouldn't be limited to Louisiana in getting quality recruits. Why can't we sign kids from Houston or Dallas? Why can't we get a kid from Memphis or Atlanta or Miami? O'Bryant was from Mississippi; we can't get another kid from there this year? Why not?
I'd also like to address some of them (this is part 1)...
quote:
I am beginning to be of the opinion that Trent Johnson is getting some flack on the recruiting trail based on his job security and lack of success. I predict he will wait until the spring to sign anyone besides Morgan. By that time, LSU will have had a good season and his future will be secure. He can then pick up some good spring signees, which there are always some good ones. Or he will have had a bad season and be fired. Either way, the future of Trent Johnson will be decided by spring (actually, probably February as we will know how the season is going by that time). His third option would be to sign some players early that are below the quality level that he needs.
While I don't substantively disagree with this as an analysis of where things stand, it's a fairly damning indictment of Johnson's recruiting prowess. He's not in his first year; he's in his FOURTH. He's recruiting guys who presumably he's been working on since they were freshmen and sophomores in high school. The idea that you're three weeks from the signing period starting and all you can point to is one guy who's grown up a huge LSU fan all his life as an accomplishment, and then you're going to hold your scholarships until the spring to see whether you get fired or not - if that actually represents where we are in hoops recruiting, then we're already so far gone that there's little point in keeping Johnson.
Let's say he makes a turnaround of sorts and gets us to the NIT this year. I can't see an NCAA tournament coming off last season, but I'll say NIT.
How does that substantively upgrade the talent available to us? Bear in mind that you're probably only looking at 25-30 of the top 150 recruits in the country who will be available, and it doesn't look like any of those people have any current interest in LSU, so how likely is it that you can get any of them? What that means is you'll be out there trying to find not one Anthony Hickey (assuming he's actually good, which I sure hope he is) in the spring but FOUR of them. Lotsa luck there.
There is no way to spin this as good performance, or acceptable. We're attempting to make a virtue out of necessity and say it's smart not to recruit players when they're available because nobody good wants to come. Call me a pessimist, but that doesn't give me any encouragement.
quote:
yep, worse recruiter, yet, we don't know what the signing class is.
The point is that it's three weeks from Signing Day and we have no indication he's in good shape with anybody but Malik Morgan. We don't even have any reports of in-demand players taking official visits here.
I don't think it's going out on a limb to say this doesn't look like success. It's apples and oranges, sure, but Les Miles doesn't keep us in suspense on 80 percent of his signing class three weeks from National Signing Day. And while I absolutely am not going to suggest that we need John Brady back here - I was excited as hell when that change was made - Brady's recruiting activity was always a lot more pronounced than this and his results were usually a hell of a lot better than what Trent has given us so far.
quote:
What if we close with Sanchez, flip Gathers and land a SF type player. What would people think of those three with Morgan for this season?
Is there any real indication we're going to close with Sanchez? If somebody could show me an article which legitimately links him with LSU I'd love to see it.
As for flipping Gathers, let's call that highly speculative. It would be kind to describe it in those terms. Just because he might not end up at St. John's doesn't mean he comes here. We've been recruiting him for three years and he's already rejected us. Maybe that changes, but anybody who's counting on it is a good bit more optimistic than I am.
As for the wing player, that'd be great. Who are we going to get? Does Country Day or St. Martin's have somebody good? Can anybody tell me who's a wing guy LSU has a real shot at right now? Who's a wing guy who's visited here?
And I'd point out you're still a man short even if the stars aligned and Trent managed all this.
quote:
There are still quite a few talented players on our board and I don't have a problem with the names that are left. A very good class could be crafted out of that group. It's the lack of info and news that is disturbing, and also lack of apparent interest in some Louisiana players (Qualls and Gray).
Bubba, it's not that the names on our board aren't acceptable - it's that that board only represents people LSU is reported to have some interest in. Like you said, there's no news on any of these guys. Johnson has signed players before and there's usually an indication that, "yeah, I'm considering LSU" somewhere in the media before they commit here. Can you name one of these guys giving us that indication right now? I follow this stuff a decent bit and I can't.
quote:
We got JOB last year who was a top 50 recruit. Malik Morgan, Matt Derenbecker & Aaron Dotson are top 100.
Derenbecker and Dotson are gone, and so far we haven't committed anybody to replace them. And O'Bryant was LAST YEAR.
You've got to sign a Top 50 player every year if you want to compete on a high level. I'm saying Top 50, not the one-and-done McDonald's All-American types Kentucky signs. Top 50 means Big Baby, Brandon Bass, Tasmin Mitchell types (they were all McDonald's All-Americans, sure, but nobody considered them one-and-done guys). We haven't had too many of those in Louisiana lately, but we shouldn't be limited to Louisiana in getting quality recruits. Why can't we sign kids from Houston or Dallas? Why can't we get a kid from Memphis or Atlanta or Miami? O'Bryant was from Mississippi; we can't get another kid from there this year? Why not?
Posted on 10/18/11 at 11:25 pm to macaoidh
And now part 2...
The jury is out on the last class. Trent isn't talking about O'Bryant like he's an impact player, and that's not a good sign.
And Trent didn't just get here. He's in his FOURTH year. If we can't get quality recruits to come to LSU, why isn't that an indictment of his recruiting? We might not be Kentucky, but we're not Detroit Mercy or UNC-Asheville, either. It's not like you don't have something to sell at LSU or that Trent isn't being paid to produce.
Preach on, brother! Trent wins 25 games, and I'm sure he won't repeat the mistake of having three scholarships to give and not signing anybody when the program is back on the radar LIKE HE DID IN HIS FIRST YEAR.
Let's not get into the question of how a team with a slow 5'8" shooting guard is going to win 25 games, because regardless of recruiting I'd like to stay optimistic.
And if Miles had finished last in the SEC two years in a row I can guarantee he wouldn't be here anymore. You can't even begin to make a comparison between Les Miles and Trent Johnson; they're not even on the same planet in terms of performance.
Is Baylor a basketball school? Is Colorado? How about Auburn? They're all sitting with better recruiting classes than we have so far. I'd actually settle for having a class as good as Colorado's right now. Is that unrealistic?
Maybe you're right. But if he's a legitimately good recruiter who can't get anybody because he doesn't cheat, then basketball recruiting is so far gone that we're going to have to hire a guy who can cheat and get away with it if we want to compete in basketball.
What I understand is that Trent won't go on the AAU circuit in the summertime because he thinks it's corrupt. And while I feel his pain, if everybody he competes against is there and he's absent, corrupt or not you can't win for recruits without at least showing your face there. Not being at the AAU tournaments is also a great way not to have a clue who can play and who can't; I'm sure it's very impressive when Eddie Ludwig drops 30 on St. Martin's or John Isaac lights up Rosepine for a triple-double, but when they get schooled by a kid from Little Rock at a tournament you didn't see you might not have as good a frame of reference as you might need in evaluating talent.
This isn't Nevada where we're paying 250K in hopes that once in 10 years we can make the tournament. We're paying better than $1.2 million to get a consistent winner. That means doing it better than the competition, not making excuses about why you shouldn't have to do it at all.
quote:
I thought he did a pretty good job with the last class. How many McDonald's All-Americans do you expect to go to a program that is where this one is right now? Quite a few schools went after O'Bryant and Hamilton. This isn't Kentucky
The jury is out on the last class. Trent isn't talking about O'Bryant like he's an impact player, and that's not a good sign.
And Trent didn't just get here. He's in his FOURTH year. If we can't get quality recruits to come to LSU, why isn't that an indictment of his recruiting? We might not be Kentucky, but we're not Detroit Mercy or UNC-Asheville, either. It's not like you don't have something to sell at LSU or that Trent isn't being paid to produce.
quote:
I for one expect LSU to make the NCAA field, win 75% or more of their games, and be in the top three or four teams in the SEC. As the season progresses, the fans will be back. Fans hated Miles for a few years, gave Saban credit for LSU's 2007 BCS NC, and showed Miles no respect! Look at him now!! Aren't we glad we didn't run him out of town like you are trying to do with Trent.
Preach on, brother! Trent wins 25 games, and I'm sure he won't repeat the mistake of having three scholarships to give and not signing anybody when the program is back on the radar LIKE HE DID IN HIS FIRST YEAR.
Let's not get into the question of how a team with a slow 5'8" shooting guard is going to win 25 games, because regardless of recruiting I'd like to stay optimistic.
And if Miles had finished last in the SEC two years in a row I can guarantee he wouldn't be here anymore. You can't even begin to make a comparison between Les Miles and Trent Johnson; they're not even on the same planet in terms of performance.
quote:
We are not a basketball school. We will rarely attract top 25 players who do not have a Louisiana connection or are from one of our nearby states without a legitimate basketball program (I'm looking at you, Mississippi). Unfortunately, that's just the way it is. Realistically, if you're a top player, and you haven't been raised a huge fan of hometown U, would you even look twice at a place like LSU?
Is Baylor a basketball school? Is Colorado? How about Auburn? They're all sitting with better recruiting classes than we have so far. I'd actually settle for having a class as good as Colorado's right now. Is that unrealistic?
quote:
Quite honestly, I think TJ struggles to recruit well because he doesn't cheat.
Maybe you're right. But if he's a legitimately good recruiter who can't get anybody because he doesn't cheat, then basketball recruiting is so far gone that we're going to have to hire a guy who can cheat and get away with it if we want to compete in basketball.
What I understand is that Trent won't go on the AAU circuit in the summertime because he thinks it's corrupt. And while I feel his pain, if everybody he competes against is there and he's absent, corrupt or not you can't win for recruits without at least showing your face there. Not being at the AAU tournaments is also a great way not to have a clue who can play and who can't; I'm sure it's very impressive when Eddie Ludwig drops 30 on St. Martin's or John Isaac lights up Rosepine for a triple-double, but when they get schooled by a kid from Little Rock at a tournament you didn't see you might not have as good a frame of reference as you might need in evaluating talent.
This isn't Nevada where we're paying 250K in hopes that once in 10 years we can make the tournament. We're paying better than $1.2 million to get a consistent winner. That means doing it better than the competition, not making excuses about why you shouldn't have to do it at all.
Posted on 10/18/11 at 11:39 pm to macaoidh
I agree with almost everything you said. LSU should be fielding an upper SEC basketball program. When you look at what kids want recruiting wise we have to be at or near the top in facilities. Fan base may sway a couple kids but I find it hard to believe that it turns off many kids. In the end it has to come down to your coach and recruiting.
One thing I don't get and maybe someone can explain it to me, if we look at Sanchez for example it is reported he has an FIU offer and interest from us and Manhattan. How in the world can LSU not offer a player who is considering those schools and not get him, unless the player is dead set on staying in one area?
One thing I don't get and maybe someone can explain it to me, if we look at Sanchez for example it is reported he has an FIU offer and interest from us and Manhattan. How in the world can LSU not offer a player who is considering those schools and not get him, unless the player is dead set on staying in one area?
Posted on 10/18/11 at 11:43 pm to macaoidh
Wow. I agree wholeheartedly. good post!
Posted on 10/18/11 at 11:53 pm to macaoidh
It's not positive and I don't see anyone trying to spin it that way. I was just giving my opinion of the situation. I have no proof that TJ is purposely waiting until the spring.
I think our sports media is shitty for not grilling Trent on this issue at his press conference.
I think our sports media is shitty for not grilling Trent on this issue at his press conference.
Posted on 10/18/11 at 11:59 pm to Bubba Hotep
quote:
It's not positive and I don't see anyone trying to spin it that way. I was just giving my opinion of the situation. I have no proof that TJ is purposely waiting until the spring. I think our sports media is shitty for not grilling Trent on this issue at his press conference.
On that we can certainly agree. It's past time that he gets some tough questions about his performance on the recruiting trail.
Posted on 10/19/11 at 12:16 am to Bubba Hotep
Josh gray can't stay out of trouble.....
Posted on 10/19/11 at 12:45 am to macaoidh
louisiana has had some great talent recently too.. trent has gotta get his act in order
Posted on 10/19/11 at 7:01 am to RollTigersRoll
I hate the fact that this thread exists, but even moreso I hate that I can't disagree with alot of the opinions stated.
Posted on 10/19/11 at 8:14 am to GeorgeTheGreek
quote:
Quite honestly, I think TJ struggles to recruit well because he doesn't cheat.
this has been my hypothesis for like 18 months
Posted on 10/19/11 at 8:22 am to macaoidh
quote:
Is Baylor a basketball school? Is Colorado? How about Auburn? They're all sitting with better recruiting classes than we have so far. I'd actually settle for having a class as good as Colorado's right now. Is that unrealistic?
Then we need home-grown talent. All of their top 150 players come from in-state or adjacent states - Colorado managed to get a good Cali player, Auburn got a good GA player, and all of Baylor's players are from Texas. If we want to compete for SEC tournaments and sweet 16s, we need to lock down Louisiana and Mississippi players. That's why I don't understand why we got TJ - he's completely a west-coast guys and it's going to be REALLY hard to get any good California prospect to come to Louisiana. We need someone with local connections. That's why Brady was so good on the trail - he worked in Mississippi during his early coaching years and helped us out over there.
This post was edited on 10/19/11 at 11:07 am
Posted on 10/19/11 at 9:20 am to RollTigers
While I kind of agree with you, none of the coaches you named are from the states where they are coaching.
Posted on 10/19/11 at 9:30 am to RollTigers
quote:
all of Baylor's players are from Texas.
Baylor signed two top players from North Carolina last year.
quote:
. If we want to compete for SEC tournaments and sweet 16s, we need to lock down Louisiana and Michigan players.
I assume you mean Mississippi, and Johnson has signed better players recently out of Mississippi than Brady did. I dont think Brady signed anyone from Mississippi since Ronald Dupree. Brady did a much better job in Texas and seemed like he was just getting started in Atlanta.
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