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Message
water cool the reference r9 290 or wait for custom cards in Jan?
Posted on 12/26/13 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 12:41 pm
Got a couple of questions you gurus might find interesting. . .
As you guys may know, the new Hawaii chips in the 290 and 290X are incredibly powerful, and when overclocked, even the $400 290 can best the titan on a lot of benchmarks. The catch, of course, is that the reference cooler tends to run both very hot and loud.
so. . . I can either wait until january for the custom cards to come out, (which will likely be released with a hefty premium-I'm guessing at least $50 as these fricking bitcoin wanna-be entrepreneurs are driving up GPu prices) OR I can go with one of these bad boys LINK ($30) with an H55 mounted to it.
GPU temp is the primary metric that determines how far you can push it, correct? As you can see from those benchmarks, the improvements are an unreal 40°c under load.
Also, as compared to a full water block for the gpu, the G10 install would not void the cards warranty as it could be removed and replaced with the reference cooler if necessary.
As you guys may know, the new Hawaii chips in the 290 and 290X are incredibly powerful, and when overclocked, even the $400 290 can best the titan on a lot of benchmarks. The catch, of course, is that the reference cooler tends to run both very hot and loud.
so. . . I can either wait until january for the custom cards to come out, (which will likely be released with a hefty premium-I'm guessing at least $50 as these fricking bitcoin wanna-be entrepreneurs are driving up GPu prices) OR I can go with one of these bad boys LINK ($30) with an H55 mounted to it.
GPU temp is the primary metric that determines how far you can push it, correct? As you can see from those benchmarks, the improvements are an unreal 40°c under load.
Also, as compared to a full water block for the gpu, the G10 install would not void the cards warranty as it could be removed and replaced with the reference cooler if necessary.
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 12:50 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 1:09 pm to el duderino III
The second part of this is cooling the VRM/Memory area of the card, which is covered by the 92mm fan on the g10, but under max load seemed insufficient.
I have the rosewill thor V2 which on the side panel comes with a 240mm fan but has mounting holes for four 120Mm fans, so my question is, would I be better off switching to at least 2 higher rpm 120mm mans to blow directly on to that card?
In general, is the tradeoff for multiple smaller fans vs single larger ones increased airflow but more noise?
I have the rosewill thor V2 which on the side panel comes with a 240mm fan but has mounting holes for four 120Mm fans, so my question is, would I be better off switching to at least 2 higher rpm 120mm mans to blow directly on to that card?
In general, is the tradeoff for multiple smaller fans vs single larger ones increased airflow but more noise?
Posted on 12/26/13 at 1:19 pm to el duderino III
Please link where you can get a 290 for $400 right now.
Yes it would. It voids the warranty(for nearly all manufacturers) just by removing the OEM heatsink, even to just change the TIM.
Also, why wouldn't you be able to remove the full block and put the the original cooler back on?
quote:
the G10 install would not void the cards warranty as it could be removed and replaced with the reference cooler if necessary.
Yes it would. It voids the warranty(for nearly all manufacturers) just by removing the OEM heatsink, even to just change the TIM.
Also, why wouldn't you be able to remove the full block and put the the original cooler back on?
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 1:26 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 1:41 pm to el duderino III
quote:
Also, as compared to a full water block for the gpu, the G10 install would not void the cards warranty as it could be removed and replaced with the reference cooler if necessary.
A full-cover water block wouldn't void the warranty either, unless the brand (ahem, Sapphire) states that the warranty will be voided if you remove the stock cooler. However, if you're the type who changes graphics cards frequently, a universal solution such as the one you linked is the most cost effective method for liquid cooling.
Should you do it? If money isn't a factor, definitely. Personally, I wish there were more universal closed loop solutions for GPUs out there. Because of the larger die size, GPUs benefit the most from liquid cooling vs. CPUs. Even the crappiest liquid cooling system/universal block will cut GPU temps in half, and 120mm radiator fans instead of tiny high-rpm blower fans will significantly reduce noise (even with aftermarket/non-reference air coolers, the GPU fans are often the loudest part of a gaming PC). Water cooling a CPU is more of an enthusiast/hobby/novelty thing. It will help reduce noise, but that doesn't mean much if you are still using the jet engine reference cooler. Liquid cooling will allow for better overclocks, but the gains you get from a CPU overclock on water vs. a $30-40 air solution are superfluous. If you're going strictly for gaming performance, GPU overclocking provides the most significant improvements.
You are correct that GPU temp is the primary metric that determines overclock potential (assuming you're willing to push voltage as well. Otherwise, it's still luck of the draw. As with any fabricated microprocessor, there's always a margin of error). But that's still not the whole story. One area of concern with these universal GPU block solutions vs. a full-cover block is that they only cool the GPU, or in this case, provide a pisspoor VRM cooling solution. Unless the stock cooler has a separately effective VRM cooling solution, the mosfets will be left bare, as will the RAM. This is fine for stock voltage, mild overclocks, and gaming. I'd highly recommend copper ram sinks, but even with those, RAM voltage will need to stay at stock. You can use tiny mosfet heatsinks or a pricier separate mosfet cooling solution, but your barrier to maximum overclocks will still be those VRM/mosfet temps. They are made to withstand high temperatures, and they will quickly reach those temps, especially when doing significant stress-testing and mining.
Without proper VRM cooling, a universal block won't give you the maximum overclock achievable by a good full-cover block with active VRM cooling. However, the universal blocks are more cost-effective, by a mile, because the full-cover blocks are PCB-specific and all the ones worth a damn are over $100. Any significant GPU upgrade will render that block obsolete to you, whereas you can take the universal one with you from upgrade to upgrade. You just have to be careful about the VRM temps.
And now that that's out of the way, I must ask if you actually did some research in the past week to see the current state of Tahiti and Hawaii availability/pricing. If you find a 290 for $400, you better get it. Even newegg is gouging because of the mining frenzy. Their cheapest 290 is $500 (still a better value vs. a GTX 780, but not by much and not a good purchase considering it's an inflated price).
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 2:02 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 2:38 pm to ILikeLSUToo
quote:
Their cheapest 290 is $500 (still a better value vs. a GTX 780, but not by much and not a good purchase considering it's an inflated price).
Eh, I would buy a 780 over a 290 if they were the same price. Quieter, runs cooler, and uses less power. Plus, from all the benches I've seen, the 780 bests the 290
Posted on 12/26/13 at 2:39 pm to el duderino III
OP, make sure you post in the Benchmarking Competition Thread when you get your card
Posted on 12/26/13 at 2:57 pm to ILikeLSUToo
Awesome post, thanks for the input. This will strictly be for gaming, so would VRM/mosfets reach max temps quick enough to make the gains from using a closed loop cooler with the G10 not worth the time/money? I was hoping the 92mm fan on the G10 plus the side mounted fans blowing directly over the card would be enough to cool those areas of the card.
Also, all the retailers that still have reference 290s in stock are gouging, but another batch is due to be released and several retailers (all the ones who are out of stock right now) have orders coming in jan 2nd for which you can preorder now for around 420. Also im sure when the custom cards are released around the same time, prices on the reference 290s should hopefully fall back around 400.
Also, all the retailers that still have reference 290s in stock are gouging, but another batch is due to be released and several retailers (all the ones who are out of stock right now) have orders coming in jan 2nd for which you can preorder now for around 420. Also im sure when the custom cards are released around the same time, prices on the reference 290s should hopefully fall back around 400.
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 3:06 pm to bluebarracuda
quote:
Eh, I would buy a 780 over a 290 if they were the same price. Quieter, runs cooler, and uses less power. Plus, from all the benches I've seen, the 780 bests the 290
You're right. For some reason I had it in my head that the 780 was at the $550 price point. Ignoring noise/temps (since OP is about water cooling), the 780 seems to marginally beat the 290 at 1080p, so a slightly better value at $500 and definitely a better value if comparing stock cooling solutions. NVidia is going to get a lot of converts and newcomers who just want to play games and don't care about mining. AMD/retailers were able to keep up with demand for the previous mining bubbles, but it's getting too mainstream now, plus RAM shortage is probably a contributing factor. The retailers are the sole blame for the inflated pricing, though.
Posted on 12/26/13 at 3:13 pm to el duderino III
quote:
as compared to a full water block for the gpu, the G10 install would not void the cards warranty as it could be removed and replaced with the reference cooler if necessary.
This isn't true. Very few companies void the warranty for full blocks.
Posted on 12/26/13 at 3:15 pm to LSU Coyote
yep, and sapphire is one of those companies. I will never buy one of their cards again.
Posted on 12/26/13 at 3:17 pm to brucevilanch
quote:I said now but I really meant early jan
Please link where you can get a 290 for $400 right now
quote:I was under the impression that applying a full water block involved custom heat sinks, thermal paste, etc that would be very hard to hide if returned and void most manufacturer warranties, whereas using the G10+AIO cooler most likely would not. Is that not correct?
Also, why wouldn't you be able to remove the full block and put the the original cooler back on?
quote:
This isn't true. Very few companies void the warranty for full blocks.
ETA thanks for the clarification. A full water block would be better for cooling the VRM, but requires a custom water cooling system, correct? Which would then make it less than cost effective for my rig?
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 3:24 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 3:18 pm to el duderino III
quote:
This will strictly be for gaming, so would VRM/mosfets reach max temps quick enough to make the gains from using a closed loop cooler with the G10 not worth the time/money? I was hoping the 92mm fan on the G10 plus the side mounted fans blowing directly over the card would be enough to cool those areas of the card.
I didn't read about the G10 too closely, but is there any sort of heatsink making contact with the mosfets? The fans will help, but there really needs to be something making contact, like these:
Only problem with those tiny heatsinks is that keeping them attached is very difficult without thermal epoxy (and it's permanent, for all intents and purposes).
If you're gaming, it's less of a problem. I remember using a full-cover waterblock that didn't have active vrm cooling (just used passive acetal), and while mining, the vrms reached the 100-110C range, which was a bit too high for my comfort. This was with a max overclock with the voltage a 1.3v and 20% power limit, both set in afterburner. I think the mosfet sinks shown above would've been even better than the acetal piece connected to the water block. When gaming, the VRM temps were in the 70-80 range. Perfectly safe 24/7 temps. It was a cheap XSPC Block I got for $60. I've since upgraded to heatkiller blocks that actively cool the RAM and vrms:
I'm glad some retailers are offering preorders for the correct price. I imagine that anyone who doesn't preorder will run into the same problem that's happening now.
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 3:19 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 3:38 pm to bluebarracuda
quote:for 1080p gaming yes, but I plan to be gaming at 1440p, and at higher res the r9's really shine for their price.
Eh, I would buy a 780 over a 290 if they were the same price. Quieter, runs cooler, and uses less power. Plus, from all the benches I've seen, the 780 bests the 290
And considering all these r9 benches are done with these astonishingly shitty reference coolers, ill take the 290 over the 780 for ~$80 less all day.
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 4:03 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 3:50 pm to bluebarracuda
quote:for sure. Also, I believe it was you who recommended 1440p over all else monitor wise. Ended up getting a Qnix, thing is absolutely beautiful. I will never go back to 1080p for my main monitor
, make sure you post in the Benchmarking Competition Thread wh
Posted on 12/26/13 at 3:58 pm to el duderino III
quote:
ETA thanks for the clarification. A full water block would be better for cooling the VRM, but requires a custom water cooling system, correct? Which would then make it less than cost effective for my rig?
Correct.
I say go for a custom loop. A lot of ppl here can help you out and I don't mind sending a few pieces of hardware for the loop to you.
quote:
I believe it was you who recommended 1440p over all else monitor wise. Ended up getting a Qnix, thing is absolutely beautiful. I will never go back to 1080p for my main monitor
They are awesome.
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 3:59 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 4:24 pm to LSU Coyote
quote:that would be awesome, but what would you guess the total would run me? Also arent there concerns about leaks or other problems vs AIO coolers?
I say go for a custom loop. A lot of ppl here can help you out and I don't mind sending a few pieces of hardware for the loop to you
Posted on 12/26/13 at 4:29 pm to el duderino III
quote:
ETA thanks for the clarification. A full water block would be better for cooling the VRM, but requires a custom water cooling system, correct? Which would then make it less than cost effective for my rig?
Yes, custom loops with full-cover blocks are the least cost-effective cooling solution. I say that even though I have an expensive loop. They are nice, they look cool, they give you the best overclock and the lowest temps, etc., but the cost doesn't justify the performance gains at all. It's a luxury/hobbyist thing. You can do them on a budget at the expense of looks, though.
ETA: Leaks can be a problem if fittings, tubing, and clamps are not properly installed. AIO coolers take the user error out of the equation, but it's not like they never ever leak (although, I've heard of them leaking and Corsair actually paying for damages. Proving the leak wasn't your fault is probably tough, though.)
This post was edited on 12/26/13 at 4:33 pm
Posted on 12/26/13 at 4:42 pm to el duderino III
quote:
what would you guess the total would run me?
Over $300 if you want to cool CPU and GPU with a full-cover block. All the full-cover GPU blocks worth a crap are over $100. If you have a case to accommodate a 120x3 radiator, the XSPC kits are an excellent value: LINK
The 750 pump and any of those 120x3 radiators are adequate for a CPU and single GPU loop. These kits represent the baseline performance for a custom loop. You can spend a lot more money for better cooling performance and aesthetics, of course, but one of those kits with a full-cover block will allow you to push any GPU to its limit.
Posted on 12/26/13 at 4:49 pm to ILikeLSUToo
I have a ton of EK fittings, D5 pump and RES you might be interested in. This would leave you only purchasing a blocks and rads.
Posted on 12/26/13 at 11:17 pm to LSU Coyote
quote:I might take you up on that but I need to do some research, especially considering I have no idea what any of those things are . I won't even be back in Austin to use the damn thing until around Jan 20th, but I believe I've settled on the reference 290 + watercooling to be the best performance per dollar, but as to whether to use AIO systems or a custom loop I still need to look into the risk/reward.
I have a ton of EK fittings, D5 pump and RES you might be interested in. This would leave you only purchasing a blocks and rads.
Also, I wasn't too concerned about the VRM/mosfet temps as I had zero interest in mining and was only building this for gaming, but the more I think about it, I might as well just let the damn thing run in the background and get some kind of return if I'm going to put this much money into a machine. I mean I have:
Thor v2 full tower
Roswell 1050w psu
16gb g-skill trident ddr3-2400
i7 4770k
256 Samsung ssd
Asrock fatal1ty Z87 Killer mobo
With one r9 290, and I plan to get a second 290 eventually as well. Do any of you guys mine? If so what kind of returns do you think I could get with such a rig? In terms of btc per x time period, please not in terms of the current price of bitcoin. (I've spent numerous discussing the future of bitcoin with Russian, Wiki, et al, and my stance is that essentially cryptocurrencies have a very real place in the future of international commerce as both a transaction network and as a short term medium of exchange, especially with regards to undermining capital controls in countries like Argentina, Iran, and China, but bitcoin in its current state will eventually be remembered as the AOL of digital currencies. Innovative, but with too many weaknesses to last.)
Power consumption is another thing I need to look at if i consider mining, as the 290 is a notorious hog. My ROI for mining would definitely depend on my rigs consumption, not just the price of Btc.
This post was edited on 12/27/13 at 12:01 am
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