re: USACE Ruins One of the Best Farms in America

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Most of them can't do anything else. They can't get out of it because they are in debt to the cooperations. They're caught in a cycle that they can't get out of. Their only option is to go bigger or get left behind, and getting left behind means going bankrupt quick and in a hurry. If not for the subsidies, they would already have all gone bankrupt a long time ago. They can't afford to stay in the cycle they're in, and the government chooses to "help" them by giving them enough money to keep food on the table, rather than making efforts to re-structure the modern industrial agriculture system. There are things to better use your pissed-off-ness on than the guys running the combine.

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Having the government pump money into failing business models makes food prices higher, stifles competition, and costs taxpayers a lot of money needlessly. During the 1980's "oil bust" and savings and loan crisis lots of people in Louisiana, Texas, Oklahoma and other states in the mid south region had to go find work in other industries and professions when energy companies and small banks went bankrupt. Nobody got government subsidies to continue failing businesses year after year. Farming shouldn't get a free pass just because someone has been doing it forever. Technology and other factors change businesses and maybe many of these farmers who couldn't survive without taking our tax dollars would be more successful in other careers. Whatever the case they do not deserve to take our tax dollars in the form of subsidies.

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You gotta understand, you MUST have farmers. You don't HAVE to have law firms. You can live without a law firm. You can't live without food. You absolutely must have productive farmers to support the population. There are alot of farmers who can't make it without tax dollars because most of their income goes to the corporations. They have to keep up. They don't have a choice.

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For the consumer it might make more sense for corporations to produce more crops than small farmers. Economic reality could favor large scale operations in that they provide cheaper food. With food being a necessity I'm pretty sure someone can make a profit producing it. So for the consumer it is better to buy products at a lower cost. If this means small farmers can't make it well that's simply too bad. Instead our government keeps pumping money into their small operations through subsidies and the taxpayers pay for this on the front end through the payments and on the back end through inflated prices for food (and probably crop lands also). There is no defending farm subsidies unless one is a farmer themselves dependent on taking from the taxpayer. TigahinAtl might have presented his arguments in a way that offended the "pro farm at all cost crowd" around here, but his assertions are essentially correct.

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You gotta understand, you MUST have farmers

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We do NOT need to have farmers, at least not in the traditional sense of farming. I have a family of 6, and can produce enough fruits and veggies to feed us for the year in a small corner of my garage. If I turn my whole garage into a growing site, I could feed my whole neighborhood for the year. It would probably cost me about $200 a month in order to do this year round. Certified organic at that.

Know how much money I need from uncle sam in order to pull this off?

$0

If I had 2,000 sq. ft of area to grow in, I could supply my town.

I'm anti-Monsanto. Very big time. You probably won't find another person who hates that corporation any more than I do. But I haven't had any run ins with them, I'm able to purchase my own seed from people other than them, I'm able to make my own seed runs. And if all else fails, I'm able to clone off the plants I have now so I don't have a reason to buy many seeds after getting a plant started off.

America needs "farmers" who don't need massive farms to produce food.

Google urban farming. You'll be surprised with the low cost options to big farming.

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People are addicted to corn and soybeans, and the quantity we need to sustain what we currently do with it is out of control

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So, corn and soybeans cannot be grown indoors? Cannot be stacked and mass produced in an area not bigger than a full size garage?

From my garage, I can grow almost any given crop you can name, and produce it in a quantity that is equal to any other farm in America per square foot (or square meter).

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Most people are not going to get off their lazy arse and put out.

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That's the same problem we have now. All farming is hard.

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People are addicted to corn and soybeans, and the quantity we need to sustain what we currently do with it is out of control

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For food, or for ethanol for gasoline? I'd rather all the food be used for food, and not cash cropped and paid for what is now one of the biggest wastes of money: growing corn for ethanol

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"Plant corn or soybeans on every square inch of dirt that you own because that's what we need."

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The problem is that the government would rather keep giving out millions of dollars to methods that don't work, rather than giving $100 to check into a cheaper alternative.

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BROffshoreTigerFan

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You know what you're talking about

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So, corn and soybeans cannot be grown indoors? Cannot be stacked and mass produced in an area not bigger than a full size garage?

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I don't see how it could be produced in the quantity that it is now. 200+ bushels an acre is a shitload, and there's a shitload of acres in nebraska. It may be plausible on paper, but I don't see how you could put it into practice on that scale.

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For food, or for ethanol for gasoline

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Both. Ethanol has alot to do with why farmers are subsidized so much to grow it. It's meant to be an incentive in alot of cases. Same thing with soybeans for biodiesel. There's a heavy reliance on high fructose corn syrup in almost all of today's processed foods. Corn is also the main ingredient in livestock feed for feedlots. The nation is dependent on corn at the moment and will be as long as the farmers can continue to shell it out in these kinda numbers.


You're right about the government being alot of the problem. We're trying to get to unicorn milk and rainbow stew with corn and soybeans.

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I have a family of 6, and can produce enough fruits and veggies to feed us for the year in a small corner of my garage. If I turn my whole garage into a growing site, I could feed my whole neighborhood for the year.

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bullshite.

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With what kind of initial investment? I'm not arguing, just looking for info.

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Depends on the set-up you're looking for. If you want enough to just provide for yourself, I can set you up a 5 plant hydro station for about $150, with lighting. If you wanted soil, I could do the same set-up for about half that price. This isn't a business I run. This is just information for you. Just wanted to get that out so you don't think I'm trying to sell you something.

My set-up cost a bit more. I'd probably put the total price tag on my set-up around $2,200. But I've got about 3,000 watts of lighting, another 400 watts in T-5 lighting for cuttings and seedlings. Most of the work I did myself, and only cost was lumber and PVC. With this set up, I can produce enough to keep my family fed, and have enough for about $600 a month in outside sales to fruit stands, etc. Depending on how hard I want to push it, I could doulbe that number. I don't want to push it that hard as it produces more work for me, and I still have my normal full time job that I work every day.

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I don't see how it could be produced in the quantity that it is now. 200+ bushels an acre is a shitload, and there's a shitload of acres in nebraska. It may be plausible on paper, but I don't see how you could put it into practice on that scale

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I definitely understand those points, and all the other ones you've made. We can grow corn, but I've never pushed it to see what we can produce on a massive level. There needs to be a surgence of people that are willing to grow like this in order to change the game up a little bit. I can't replace one farmer with 400 acres, and I understand this. But if enough people do, it's a start.

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DownshiftAndFloorIt

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I'd buy you a beer to discuss this more. I like talking to folks like you.

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LSUballs
bullshite

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How so? I'm sorry, I'm doing the work, and seeing the results. You're just posting words. Mind telling me how I'm stating bullshite?

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We do NOT need to have farmers

You got a mouse in your pocket? I need farmers. Lots of them and spread out all over the place.

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If you're going to use one of my statements, at least provide the whole statement.

My original statement:

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We do NOT need to have farmers, at least not in the traditional sense of farming

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I still stand by that statement, and I've provided details in how I can do that. If you'd like more details, just let me know and I'll show you how easy it is to do so.

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But I haven't had any run ins with them


Wait...what?

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Reading comprehension problem? Again, if you want to quote me, use the whole fricking sentence. It was pretty self-explanatory.

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But I haven't had any run ins with them, I'm able to purchase my own seed from people other than them, I'm able to make my own seed runs. And if all else fails, I'm able to clone off the plants I have now so I don't have a reason to buy many seeds after getting a plant started off

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What are most of the complaints farmers have against Monsanto? Seeds, pollen contamination from Monsanto seed stock to non-Monsanto seed stock, creating a hybrid mutant with Monsanto's seeds genetics in them, and then they sue for copy right infringement, or some other bullshite. I don't have any problems with that. I don't buy Monsanto seeds, and I don't have any risk in getting wind contamination since everything I grow is in a closed unit, with filtered intake air.

AlxTgr stop flaming if you don't have anything to add to the topic. I've explained it all very clearly. Try to keep up this time.

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I don't think you can grow enough in your garage to sustain your whole family throughout the year because you can't raise pigs in a subdivision

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I guess this was the point LSUballs was trying to make when he said bullshite.

I'll rephrase it to make it more accurate.

My original one:

I have a family of 6, and can produce enough fruits and veggies to feed us for the year in a small corner of my garage. If I turn my whole garage into a growing site, I could feed my whole neighborhood for the year.

My new one:

I have a family of 6 and can produce enough fruits and veggies to provide that portion of our diet for us without buying produce from a store/super market/fruit stand.

However, based on the produce that I have in my garden, I can make any number of vegetarian dishes so we wouldn't be eating fruits and veggies all year. Since we're meat eaters, we still have to go to the store. My neighbors would complain if I had a head or 2 of cattle in my backyard.

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I gotta cut this short. Got about 200 acres to bushog this week and I'm already late

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I stick to my urban growing because I don't have the funds for 200 acres, nor the time for it. Next year, a friend of mine is letting me plant on about 10 of his acres, and I'm going to try some new things to try and push yeilds to the max. I'm also going to be trying some urban growing methods outdoors to see how successful it is, and if I can yield more than a conventional outdoor farmer.

I don't have anything against farmers downshift..hope you don't take it that way. I'm just looking to better utilize the space I have, and spread info about these alternative methods.

I can grow 24/7, 365 days a year, never have to worry about my soil being depleted (nutrients) and really don't have to worry about pests, contamination or animals.

The only problem I have is when my AC unit goes out and turns my hydro plants into mush soup. Upkeep is minimal and cheap. I probably spend $80 a month extra in utilities. But that's my only cost incurred during a year of growing.


Where's your farm at Downshift? Whatcha growing?

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Just exposing your paranoid crazy granola bullshite beliefs.

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The belief that I can grow veggies in my garage? Yeah, that's paranoid.

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You are a weirdo and overestimate too many things to even list

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Gotcha. So, instead of pointing out where I do those things, you just name call and flame. You're soooo cool.