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Posted on 9/7/17 at 5:07 pm to AUstar
quote:
The science is clear that saturated fat correlates with heart disease. Every scientific body from the AHA to the Harvard School of Public Health (and many others) agree. No one says that saturated fat and cholesterol is good for you. No real scientist says that because all of the evidence says otherwise.
Okay, now you're just clearly trolling. Prove me wrong by explaining the role of cholesterol, the difference between HDL and LDL, the significance of particle size, and the effects of dietary cholesterol, to start and we can go from there.
Also, if you think the AHA is a "scientific body," then I'm pretty sure I'm wasting my time.
And I guess Dr Phinney isn't a real scientist to you vegan trolls right? Stanford (MD), MIT (PhD) and Harvard (post doc) and decades of teaching and research at major universities.
But muh AHA.
This post was edited on 9/8/17 at 12:45 am
Posted on 9/7/17 at 8:04 pm to zatetic
quote:
Cholesterol is needed for your brain.
Your body makes all the cholesterol you need. It is not essential to the diet like vitamins or Omega 3's.
Posted on 9/8/17 at 3:34 pm to AUstar
Saturated fat and monounsaturated fat are better for you than polyunsaturated fat, due to the stability of the bonds which provides less exposure to free radicals.
Thus less inflammation.
This is especially true of highly refined vegetable oils...even more so when these oils are heated.
Cholesterol is vital to every cell in your body. It's being found in atherosclerosis is because it's used in cell repair, not because it caused the plaque. The plaque is caused due to inflammation (from free radical damage and stress mostly).
The goal of your diet should be to have adequate protein (for muscle) and fat (for the nervous system), while eating lots of antioxidant foods (which includes lots of fruits and vegetables), don't smoke, exercise daily and don't eat at a calorie surplus. If you're bodybuilding, eat enough carbs to maintain glycogen levels.
End of story.
Thus less inflammation.
This is especially true of highly refined vegetable oils...even more so when these oils are heated.
Cholesterol is vital to every cell in your body. It's being found in atherosclerosis is because it's used in cell repair, not because it caused the plaque. The plaque is caused due to inflammation (from free radical damage and stress mostly).
The goal of your diet should be to have adequate protein (for muscle) and fat (for the nervous system), while eating lots of antioxidant foods (which includes lots of fruits and vegetables), don't smoke, exercise daily and don't eat at a calorie surplus. If you're bodybuilding, eat enough carbs to maintain glycogen levels.
End of story.
This post was edited on 9/8/17 at 3:43 pm
Posted on 9/8/17 at 5:04 pm to AUstar
Posted on 9/10/17 at 2:36 pm to AUstar
Feel free to post actual peer-reviewed papers.
Posted on 9/10/17 at 3:26 pm to AUstar
I have posted about this ad nauseam in the past
Speaking in absolutes is rarely helpful/correct. Most contemporary nutritional "science" is very myopic in it's approach (tunnel vision, neglecting the big picture). I would also argue that it has been corrupted by corporate influence/ $$$$$
The discussion is much more nuanced....
If you are eating meat or drinking milk from a "concentration camp" animal, then sure, you will be getting a heavy dose of inflammatory omega 6, grain fed animal profile
If you are eating meat from a grass fed animal, beneficial omega 3 fat (along with the most nutrient dense profile food) will be coming your way
Dan John Heuristic = Eat as close to the sun from a trophic level perspective
- Plants = good
- Animal/animal products that eat said plants = good
Human intervention/alduteration
-animals fed grains = bad
-processed foods = terrible
In summary:
The name of the health, longevity and quality of life game (in general) is to:
-maximize / optimize glucose partitioning
-optimize a low inflammation diet (well sourced natural fats/proteins)
-practice relative caloric restriction
-preserve healthy skeletal muscle mass (the metabolic site optimizing glucose partitioning) and bone density while not overpromoting IGF-1 pathway (tumor promoting at an extreme)
-optimizing the gut microbiome
In general:
A diet high in fat with moderate protein and relative carbohydrate restriction (think keto, paleo, primal) accomplishes the goals above while maintaining a robust quality of life. Strong hormonal satiety is invoked by a diet high in fat/protein. This allows for interval episodes of fasting (intermittent fasting) and less meals per day (if you believe in the limiting exposures to food additives sort of logic). Most would argue that this is the way the human species evolved to eat and manage food scarcity. In modern times it promotes compliance with a dietary lifestyle change.
Metrics such as grip strength, waist to hip ratio <0.9, and wether you can get up from a chair or the ground without assistance become very simple / practical predictors of longevity. Muscle preservation /strength set the tone for metabolic robustness and resilience
The goals above are very difficult if not impossible to accomplish strictly on a vegan and /or protein restricted diet.
Peter Attia has commented on this a bunch
youtube
Peter Attia on Longevity
Notes:
- would be great to measure mTOR in blood (currently none); pathway senses amino acid concentrations and involved in protein synthesis; decreased mTOR activity increases longevity
- mTOR driven by leucine sensing (a branched chain amino acid), especially in muscle; don’t want too much or too little
- IGF-1 increases mTOR activity and both regulated by amino acid intake; activators AKT signaling pathway for cell growth and proliferation
- debate whether IGF-1 is driven by protein alone or by carbohydrates by way of insulin
- methionine shown to be most active factor for driving IGF-1
- as insulin goes down, IGFBP3 (anti proliferative effect) goes up
- sex-hormone binding globulin goes up when insulin down, free testosterone goes down; produced by living and binds hormones in blood; only 1-2% of hormones are unbound/active; relative binding affinity: dihydrotestosterone > testosterone > androstenediol > estradiol > estrone; free testosterone drop when restrict carbohydrates
- IGF-1 doesn’t initiate cancer, but does fuel existing cancerous cells; carbohydrates can initiate cancer via many pathways
- those with longest lives die from same diseases as everyone else, but just get them later; hence need to delay the big three that causes 75% of deaths: cardiovascular, cancer, neurodegeneration
- diet recommendation: consume the least amount of protein to grow muscle mass, but no more; lower carbohydrate as much as possible; fat becomes fill
- mucin keeps gut from microbiota; when break down, causes endotoxins to enter blood stream; can measure endotoxin, but lots of false positives; fiber, short chain fatty acids, Tregs
- ApoE - amount of mutant ApoE expressed matters more than genotype; currently no CLIA lab test, but some experimental; ¾ (20%) gives 2-fold increased risk, 4/4 gives 5-10-fold; but majority of people with Alzheimer’s is ¾ or 4/4; what may be more predictive is serum levels; if can measure, perhaps can change diet to decrease serum levels; ApoE4 expression is lower in the brain which causes Alzheimer’s; literature today suggests that when correct for LDL particle number and ApoB, then ApoE genotype doesn’t matter; high levels of ApoB associated with higher LDL particle levels and primary driver for plaques and vascular disease; ¾ or 4/4 should have harder time clearing LDL from circulation; what are differences between clearance and cholesterol internalization, in brain vs liver; drinking with ApoE4 causes damage due to inhibition of repair; ApoE4 itself creates aggregates
- pyruvate dehydrogenase - limiting step that is activated by cofactor vitamin B; bridge between glycolysis and Kreb’s
- breast cancer account for 3% deaths in women; all cancers 20-21%; cardiac disease 22-23%
- biggest drivers of cardiac disease: smoking, hypotension, and elevated ApoB (more LDL and cholesterol in macrophages; can increase HDL to take cholesterol out of macrophages; ApoB is best biomarker for cardiovascular disease)
- Alzheimer’s has increased 2.5% per year, but longevity has been increasing 0.6% per year; therefore isn’t just natural response of getting old; think may be related to type II diabetes and hyperinsulinemia; ApoE may just be susceptibility; neuronal energy problem
- increase central IGF-1 in brain to decrease dementia, decrease peripheral IGF-1 in blood; some evidence that increased central IGF-1 may prevent against diabetes
- astrocytes are supporting cells for neurons; primarily uptake glucose and convert to lactic acid as feed for neurons; thermodynamically more favorable to shoot right into citric acid cycle
- monocarboxylate transporters 1 (MCT-1) carries lactate, pyruvate, ketones BHB and acetoacetate into cell; MCT-1 transport lactate out of muscle and take to Cori cycle in liver to make glucose
- ketosis blood concentration (mM):
< 0.2 not in ketosis
0.2-0.5 slight/mild ketosis
0.5-3.0 induced/nutritional ketosis
2.5-3.5 post-exercise ketosis
3.0-6.0 starvation ketosis
15-25 ketoacidosis
- Warburg effect - cancer cells produce energy by high rate of glycolysis and lactic acid fermentation vs normal cells that have low rate of glycolysis and oxidation of pyruvate in mitochondria; glycolysis faster for making building blocks; potentially because cancer cells make anti-death signals and mitrochronial causes reactive oxygen species that would tip the balance towards pro-death; may be that in cancer mitochondria is purposely bypassed; may be why activating pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase and ketosis diet can kill cancer cells
- dietary anti-oxidants when have cancer suppresses pro-death signaling
Speaking in absolutes is rarely helpful/correct. Most contemporary nutritional "science" is very myopic in it's approach (tunnel vision, neglecting the big picture). I would also argue that it has been corrupted by corporate influence/ $$$$$
The discussion is much more nuanced....
If you are eating meat or drinking milk from a "concentration camp" animal, then sure, you will be getting a heavy dose of inflammatory omega 6, grain fed animal profile
If you are eating meat from a grass fed animal, beneficial omega 3 fat (along with the most nutrient dense profile food) will be coming your way
Dan John Heuristic = Eat as close to the sun from a trophic level perspective
- Plants = good
- Animal/animal products that eat said plants = good
Human intervention/alduteration
-animals fed grains = bad
-processed foods = terrible
In summary:
The name of the health, longevity and quality of life game (in general) is to:
-maximize / optimize glucose partitioning
-optimize a low inflammation diet (well sourced natural fats/proteins)
-practice relative caloric restriction
-preserve healthy skeletal muscle mass (the metabolic site optimizing glucose partitioning) and bone density while not overpromoting IGF-1 pathway (tumor promoting at an extreme)
-optimizing the gut microbiome
In general:
A diet high in fat with moderate protein and relative carbohydrate restriction (think keto, paleo, primal) accomplishes the goals above while maintaining a robust quality of life. Strong hormonal satiety is invoked by a diet high in fat/protein. This allows for interval episodes of fasting (intermittent fasting) and less meals per day (if you believe in the limiting exposures to food additives sort of logic). Most would argue that this is the way the human species evolved to eat and manage food scarcity. In modern times it promotes compliance with a dietary lifestyle change.
Metrics such as grip strength, waist to hip ratio <0.9, and wether you can get up from a chair or the ground without assistance become very simple / practical predictors of longevity. Muscle preservation /strength set the tone for metabolic robustness and resilience
The goals above are very difficult if not impossible to accomplish strictly on a vegan and /or protein restricted diet.
Peter Attia has commented on this a bunch
youtube
Peter Attia on Longevity
Notes:
- would be great to measure mTOR in blood (currently none); pathway senses amino acid concentrations and involved in protein synthesis; decreased mTOR activity increases longevity
- mTOR driven by leucine sensing (a branched chain amino acid), especially in muscle; don’t want too much or too little
- IGF-1 increases mTOR activity and both regulated by amino acid intake; activators AKT signaling pathway for cell growth and proliferation
- debate whether IGF-1 is driven by protein alone or by carbohydrates by way of insulin
- methionine shown to be most active factor for driving IGF-1
- as insulin goes down, IGFBP3 (anti proliferative effect) goes up
- sex-hormone binding globulin goes up when insulin down, free testosterone goes down; produced by living and binds hormones in blood; only 1-2% of hormones are unbound/active; relative binding affinity: dihydrotestosterone > testosterone > androstenediol > estradiol > estrone; free testosterone drop when restrict carbohydrates
- IGF-1 doesn’t initiate cancer, but does fuel existing cancerous cells; carbohydrates can initiate cancer via many pathways
- those with longest lives die from same diseases as everyone else, but just get them later; hence need to delay the big three that causes 75% of deaths: cardiovascular, cancer, neurodegeneration
- diet recommendation: consume the least amount of protein to grow muscle mass, but no more; lower carbohydrate as much as possible; fat becomes fill
- mucin keeps gut from microbiota; when break down, causes endotoxins to enter blood stream; can measure endotoxin, but lots of false positives; fiber, short chain fatty acids, Tregs
- ApoE - amount of mutant ApoE expressed matters more than genotype; currently no CLIA lab test, but some experimental; ¾ (20%) gives 2-fold increased risk, 4/4 gives 5-10-fold; but majority of people with Alzheimer’s is ¾ or 4/4; what may be more predictive is serum levels; if can measure, perhaps can change diet to decrease serum levels; ApoE4 expression is lower in the brain which causes Alzheimer’s; literature today suggests that when correct for LDL particle number and ApoB, then ApoE genotype doesn’t matter; high levels of ApoB associated with higher LDL particle levels and primary driver for plaques and vascular disease; ¾ or 4/4 should have harder time clearing LDL from circulation; what are differences between clearance and cholesterol internalization, in brain vs liver; drinking with ApoE4 causes damage due to inhibition of repair; ApoE4 itself creates aggregates
- pyruvate dehydrogenase - limiting step that is activated by cofactor vitamin B; bridge between glycolysis and Kreb’s
- breast cancer account for 3% deaths in women; all cancers 20-21%; cardiac disease 22-23%
- biggest drivers of cardiac disease: smoking, hypotension, and elevated ApoB (more LDL and cholesterol in macrophages; can increase HDL to take cholesterol out of macrophages; ApoB is best biomarker for cardiovascular disease)
- Alzheimer’s has increased 2.5% per year, but longevity has been increasing 0.6% per year; therefore isn’t just natural response of getting old; think may be related to type II diabetes and hyperinsulinemia; ApoE may just be susceptibility; neuronal energy problem
- increase central IGF-1 in brain to decrease dementia, decrease peripheral IGF-1 in blood; some evidence that increased central IGF-1 may prevent against diabetes
- astrocytes are supporting cells for neurons; primarily uptake glucose and convert to lactic acid as feed for neurons; thermodynamically more favorable to shoot right into citric acid cycle
- monocarboxylate transporters 1 (MCT-1) carries lactate, pyruvate, ketones BHB and acetoacetate into cell; MCT-1 transport lactate out of muscle and take to Cori cycle in liver to make glucose
- ketosis blood concentration (mM):
< 0.2 not in ketosis
0.2-0.5 slight/mild ketosis
0.5-3.0 induced/nutritional ketosis
2.5-3.5 post-exercise ketosis
3.0-6.0 starvation ketosis
15-25 ketoacidosis
- Warburg effect - cancer cells produce energy by high rate of glycolysis and lactic acid fermentation vs normal cells that have low rate of glycolysis and oxidation of pyruvate in mitochondria; glycolysis faster for making building blocks; potentially because cancer cells make anti-death signals and mitrochronial causes reactive oxygen species that would tip the balance towards pro-death; may be that in cancer mitochondria is purposely bypassed; may be why activating pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase and ketosis diet can kill cancer cells
- dietary anti-oxidants when have cancer suppresses pro-death signaling
This post was edited on 9/10/17 at 3:29 pm
Posted on 9/10/17 at 3:41 pm to AUstar
quote:
P.S. I am not a vegan fanatic who wants to "save the environment." I do it strictly for health reasons. I follow the science and the science says if you want to lower your risk of heart disease, cancer, diabetes and remain a normal body weight, you will eat plants and cut-out all meat.
General observations/ trends/comment:
People almost universally feel better when switching to vegan. This is not typically an additive effect. The main benefit is the withdrawal of most of the crap they have been eating prior
Person feels great for a few months
After 6 months to a year, person feels sluggish, has mental fog, vague maladies. Pernicious nutritional deficiencies often creep in
** A balanced vegn diet can be maintained (very difficult to do, but possible), but often times these folks are advised to increase their intake of legumes, eggs/dairy, or fish (if they can).
Do you see the irony in this
In a "strange" way, most people in this thread are vegeterians who eat well sourced meats and fats
chris kresser
quote:
9 Steps To Perfect Health
This guy is a naturopathic provider who has some of the most sensible/practical views on nutrition /health
This post was edited on 9/10/17 at 6:21 pm
Posted on 9/10/17 at 6:00 pm to ThinePreparedAni
People doing a WHOLE 30 Paleo diet also feel euphoric and it is all due to eating real food and eliminating the crap.
IMO: Heavy on Veggies, sourced meat and eggs (if possible), greek yogurt, fermented foods, dark berries. On heavy training days or when feeling sluggish ( rice, oats, potatoes) If you can access RAW milk products, use them. I have access to Raw Colostrum and will down a pint after a full body workout from time to time. Get your bloodwork and get a FUL lipid panel done 1 to 2 times a year, you may find that you are genetically not suited for a Keto type diet.
If Vegans would just eat one slice of cheese a day, they could do away with the B12 fear, but then they would be vegetarians and that is not cool these days. Paleo people can be just as fanatic about their way of eating as can Keto and Intermittent Fasting people. Just do what you want and evolve and adapt as you listen to your body and as you age.
Meat and cheese aren't killing you, live your life and enjoy it.
IMO: Heavy on Veggies, sourced meat and eggs (if possible), greek yogurt, fermented foods, dark berries. On heavy training days or when feeling sluggish ( rice, oats, potatoes) If you can access RAW milk products, use them. I have access to Raw Colostrum and will down a pint after a full body workout from time to time. Get your bloodwork and get a FUL lipid panel done 1 to 2 times a year, you may find that you are genetically not suited for a Keto type diet.
If Vegans would just eat one slice of cheese a day, they could do away with the B12 fear, but then they would be vegetarians and that is not cool these days. Paleo people can be just as fanatic about their way of eating as can Keto and Intermittent Fasting people. Just do what you want and evolve and adapt as you listen to your body and as you age.
Meat and cheese aren't killing you, live your life and enjoy it.
This post was edited on 9/10/17 at 6:01 pm
Posted on 9/10/17 at 10:18 pm to ThinePreparedAni
I agree. I have listened to almost all of his pod casts. They are super informative and level headed. He also gets into the weeds of the science behind his advice, which I really enjoy.
Posted on 9/11/17 at 7:08 am to olemissfan26
Like fish!
Posted on 9/11/17 at 2:09 pm to AUstar
quote:
AUstar
you lost, just give up!!
Posted on 9/12/17 at 11:38 am to ThinePreparedAni
Side note on polyunsaturated fat (PUFA) and its Omega 3:6 ratios in meat and dairy v. fish and certain seeds:
I typed an entire post on Omega 3s and 6s (those are the two main PUFAs for those who don't know) yesterday but apparently it never posted (thanks, Irma). The short of it is, the PUFA content of meat and dairy as a ratio of its total fat--compared to the same in say flax seeds or salmon--is negligible. So, I don't really worry about the Omega 3:6 ratio in meat and dairy.
e.g.,s
a ribeye steak (per pound)
Saturated Fat 40.8g
Monounsaturated Fat 43.5g
Polyunsaturated Fat 3.5
(the Omega ratios vary between grass and grain fed, but really who cares? given PUFA content is about 4% of the total fat in a steak)
contrast:
wild caught salmon (per 154g):
Total Fat 12.5g
Saturated Fat 1.9g
Monounsaturated Fat 4 .2g
Polyunsaturated Fat 5.0g
PUFA breakdown:
Total Omega-3 fatty acids 3.98 g
Total Omega-6 fatty acids 0.34 g
and also flax seed (per 1 TBSP):
Saturated fat 0.4
Polyunsaturated fat 3 g
Monounsaturated fat 0.8 g
PUFA breakdown:
Omega 3: 2.1 g
Omega 6: 0.9g
I typed an entire post on Omega 3s and 6s (those are the two main PUFAs for those who don't know) yesterday but apparently it never posted (thanks, Irma). The short of it is, the PUFA content of meat and dairy as a ratio of its total fat--compared to the same in say flax seeds or salmon--is negligible. So, I don't really worry about the Omega 3:6 ratio in meat and dairy.
e.g.,s
a ribeye steak (per pound)
Saturated Fat 40.8g
Monounsaturated Fat 43.5g
Polyunsaturated Fat 3.5
(the Omega ratios vary between grass and grain fed, but really who cares? given PUFA content is about 4% of the total fat in a steak)
contrast:
wild caught salmon (per 154g):
Total Fat 12.5g
Saturated Fat 1.9g
Monounsaturated Fat 4 .2g
Polyunsaturated Fat 5.0g
PUFA breakdown:
Total Omega-3 fatty acids 3.98 g
Total Omega-6 fatty acids 0.34 g
and also flax seed (per 1 TBSP):
Saturated fat 0.4
Polyunsaturated fat 3 g
Monounsaturated fat 0.8 g
PUFA breakdown:
Omega 3: 2.1 g
Omega 6: 0.9g
This post was edited on 9/12/17 at 11:40 am
Posted on 9/12/17 at 12:14 pm to olemissfan26
quote:Can you truly trust the package meat at the market that is labeled grass fed? I still think that is a crock of shite. I think they just package it as "grass fed" and raised the price. That is just me being a skeptic though.
The reason why meat gets such a bad reputation is because people are eating highly processed meats and unhealthy fats. Switch to grass fed organic beef and "clean" meats. You eliminate most of the bad toxins by caring where your meat comes from/what the meat was fed before it became food.
Posted on 9/12/17 at 12:17 pm to MontyFranklyn
You can taste the difference. Grass and grain fed truely taste different.
Posted on 9/12/17 at 12:26 pm to lsu777
I will pick some up today. The Wal-Mart market by my house has some Organic Prairie brand ground beef. I will try it. I always wondered though why aren't there more local meat butchers in towns being that there so many farms. I mean I pass by 30 farms going down to my parents house who live in the county over, and I see tons of cows grazing in the grass. With this trend of going to more organic farmed foods, seems like a butcher would make a killing.
Posted on 9/12/17 at 12:56 pm to MontyFranklyn
quote:
Can you truly trust the package meat at the market that is labeled grass fed? I still think that is a crock of shite. I think they just package it as "grass fed" and raised the price. That is just me being a skeptic though.
i think the bigger question is how big a difference any of it makes (see my post above re: PUFA in meat), and what "toxins" are making it into the meat we eat (and in any quantity that matters). Everyone likes to talk about toxins and detoxing, but I haven't seen much true scientific analysis of this, especially with grass-fed v. grain-finished beef.
I much prefer the taste of grain-finished steaks + price and availability = i don't care about grass-fed any more.
i do love Kerrygold butter and Kalona heavy whipping cream, so I splurge on that.
also, eggs have enough PUFA to make it worth going cage-free/high omega-3 to me, and i definitely like the taste of yard eggs v. chicken-torture kind.
Posted on 9/12/17 at 2:59 pm to McLemore
The O3-O6 ratios btw grass and grain finished beef is not that much. All beef in this state is grass fed, most are grain finished for fattening/taste. Farm raised salmon to wild caught salmon is a big difference.
Also, yard bird eggs are best (very dark yolk) but if you can't get them, just buy the cheap eggs because it isn't killing you and save your money.
Also, yard bird eggs are best (very dark yolk) but if you can't get them, just buy the cheap eggs because it isn't killing you and save your money.
Posted on 9/13/17 at 12:26 am to Junky
quote:
The O3-O6 ratios btw grass and grain finished beef is not that much. All beef in this state is grass fed, most are grain finished for fattening/taste. Farm raised salmon to wild caught salmon is a big difference.
Also, yard bird eggs are best (very dark yolk) but if you can't get them, just buy the cheap eggs because it isn't killing you and save your money.
Those are my latest mantras in the meat, dairy, egg world. And yeah on top of the not-crazy 3:6 ratio itself (contrast with wild-caught salmon, which is huge), the very universe to which we're applying the ratio is small. Like I said, a ribeye's 6s and 3s combined make up only 4% of the total fat.
I am willing to pay more when it matters. I just don't feel like this is an area where it does, especially because Costco and even Sam's/WM have some thick juicy ribeyes and NY strips for dirt cheap.
Food board spinoff topic: chuckeye steaks. I can't decide where I am on them right now. Sometimes they're like a ribeye-filet mix. Other times they taste and feel like stew meat. I'm wondering if some butchers include some more roast sections in there. For $2-4/lb I guess it's worth the gamble. I'll have happy mutts if I lose.
This post was edited on 9/13/17 at 12:27 am
Posted on 9/14/17 at 8:06 am to Mingo Was His NameO
quote:
Instead of telling everyone that your way is the right way why don't you just admit that we don't really know and try to find more answers instead of saying you know this is the answer.
Imagine how much better our world would be if everyone did this.
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