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The case against Derek Barnett
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:06 am
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:06 am
Derek Barnett seems to be the most mocked player to the Saints, and the guy everyone "expects".
Sometimes, like last year, the most "likely" guy is the pick. And more often than not, it isn't even close.
Barnett is logical because the Saints #1 need is DE, he's an edge rusher with spectacular college production, and he's the DE most likely to be there and highest rated when the Saints pick.
The problem lies in Barnett's athleticism. His combine and proday were about as mediocre as they get. A true, elite pass rusher is almost always an incredible athlete. I have struggled to find elite pass rushers that didn't do very well at the combine or the proday. Those guys are typically next level athletes, and Barnett simply isn't. The only guy I can think of is Suggs, and he had like 24 sacks his senior year.
For instance, while JJ Watt had a similar 40 time (but better), he blows Barnett away in almost every other drill, and JJ Watt went at a similar position in the draft. Khalil Mack blows him away even more.
Yes, we are talking about elite rushers...but if you're picking a DE in the top 12, you probably want elite or close to elite production. And it is rare to see an elite pass rusher without athlete athleticism.
The question is...is Derek Barnett that much better than what you can get at 32 or 42, to pass on other players that might have much higher upside?
(FWIW, I'm actually totally fine with taking Barnett, just stoking conversation on a very likely pick)
Sometimes, like last year, the most "likely" guy is the pick. And more often than not, it isn't even close.
Barnett is logical because the Saints #1 need is DE, he's an edge rusher with spectacular college production, and he's the DE most likely to be there and highest rated when the Saints pick.
The problem lies in Barnett's athleticism. His combine and proday were about as mediocre as they get. A true, elite pass rusher is almost always an incredible athlete. I have struggled to find elite pass rushers that didn't do very well at the combine or the proday. Those guys are typically next level athletes, and Barnett simply isn't. The only guy I can think of is Suggs, and he had like 24 sacks his senior year.
For instance, while JJ Watt had a similar 40 time (but better), he blows Barnett away in almost every other drill, and JJ Watt went at a similar position in the draft. Khalil Mack blows him away even more.
Yes, we are talking about elite rushers...but if you're picking a DE in the top 12, you probably want elite or close to elite production. And it is rare to see an elite pass rusher without athlete athleticism.
The question is...is Derek Barnett that much better than what you can get at 32 or 42, to pass on other players that might have much higher upside?
(FWIW, I'm actually totally fine with taking Barnett, just stoking conversation on a very likely pick)
12
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:09 am to Fun Bunch
Barnett had a VERY good 3 cone. He isn't the fastest and didn't have the best jump numbers, but both he and Suggs had great 3 cone times.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:12 am to bonethug0108
quote:
Barnett had a VERY good 3 cone.
And still not as good as most of the elite pass rushers I looked up, save Mack.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:15 am to bonethug0108
hey bone, barnett slipped a bit in Saints Talk Mock Draft 2017.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:16 am to Fun Bunch
All of the scouting reports I've read on him say he has "elite hands that are ready for the NFL" that has me excited.
But just as you pointed out, he's not the flashy athlete. His elite hands are what kept him in the mix throughout his college career. It's such a tough spot to be in for the Saints. Taco has a lot of questions as well. If we do not take a PR at 11, I either hope we go with an big time offensive play maker like Howard or McCaffery, or perhaps trade back with someone like the Cardinals (13th) or Eagles (14th) simply to gain an extra 2nd or 3rd round pick, especially if we are going to trade with the Patriots for Butler. So trading back 2 or 3 spots will essentially cancel out the loss of picks through the Butler trade and we can use our newly aquired 1st round pick on BPA at a position of need.
But just as you pointed out, he's not the flashy athlete. His elite hands are what kept him in the mix throughout his college career. It's such a tough spot to be in for the Saints. Taco has a lot of questions as well. If we do not take a PR at 11, I either hope we go with an big time offensive play maker like Howard or McCaffery, or perhaps trade back with someone like the Cardinals (13th) or Eagles (14th) simply to gain an extra 2nd or 3rd round pick, especially if we are going to trade with the Patriots for Butler. So trading back 2 or 3 spots will essentially cancel out the loss of picks through the Butler trade and we can use our newly aquired 1st round pick on BPA at a position of need.
This post was edited on 4/21/17 at 11:17 am
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:19 am to Fun Bunch
big fat asterisk next to his combine #s being that he probably shouldn't have fought through an illness and gone home. but he showed up and toughed it out. on top of that had a hamstring injury during pro-day so #s weren't realistic their either. coaches and scouts know what his real 40-time is via him directly or his coaches at UT. i can promise you they put more stock in those #s than the injury/illness reflective combine and pro day #s
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:22 am to Broken Ear Glen
Excellent points, I forgot he was sick for the combine, and had no idea he was hurt for his pro-day.
Ohh how the plot thickens.
Ohh how the plot thickens.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:34 am to Fun Bunch
I think the combine is just like pulling the wool over your own eyes. Gametape should be your primary source.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:38 am to FitzBlitz52
glad Suggs was mentioned, he is the closest analogy of what he looked like coming out and what we could hope for in production out of Barnett.
We're getting the field narrowed to a point that you can begin to ask _________ or __________?
Tough one: Barnett or Jonathan Allen? Does the overall value of Allen outweigh the positional need/fit of Barnett? I've gone back and forth on this one. And of course we have no real insight into the medical evaluation of Allen, which could be the decider.
Barnett or whoever you have as the #2 CB? That is Conley for me. I think this choice would be highly influenced in what they see in the positional outlook at #32 & 42. There are both lots of good pass rushers and CBs there too.
Barnett or Foster? I would not be surprised with Foster but do think enough flags have been raised that he drops ten or more spots.
We're getting the field narrowed to a point that you can begin to ask _________ or __________?
Tough one: Barnett or Jonathan Allen? Does the overall value of Allen outweigh the positional need/fit of Barnett? I've gone back and forth on this one. And of course we have no real insight into the medical evaluation of Allen, which could be the decider.
Barnett or whoever you have as the #2 CB? That is Conley for me. I think this choice would be highly influenced in what they see in the positional outlook at #32 & 42. There are both lots of good pass rushers and CBs there too.
Barnett or Foster? I would not be surprised with Foster but do think enough flags have been raised that he drops ten or more spots.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:47 am to Fun Bunch
This thread makes me really glad I'm not the front office guy who has to make this decision. Great points on both sides
Posted on 4/21/17 at 11:56 am to Fun Bunch
I'd almost say just double up at edge rusher at 11 and 32. It's a position we HAVE to get right.
Or, my hope is that Lattimore falls to 11 and then we take two pass rushers at 32 and 42. But that's just me.
Or, my hope is that Lattimore falls to 11 and then we take two pass rushers at 32 and 42. But that's just me.
This post was edited on 4/21/17 at 11:59 am
Posted on 4/21/17 at 12:03 pm to WicKed WayZ
If that happens, all of WHO DAT Nation will have some very tight pants.
quote:
my hope is that Lattimore falls to 11 and then we take two pass rushers at 32 and 42.
This post was edited on 4/21/17 at 12:04 pm
Posted on 4/21/17 at 12:15 pm to Fun Bunch
I'm just gonna leave these here......
Posted on 4/21/17 at 12:17 pm to Meateye
quote:
Meateye
Has offcially swayed my vote.
Barnett at 11
Posted on 4/21/17 at 12:26 pm to FitzBlitz52
quote:
Meateye
Has offcially swayed my vote.
Barnett at 11
Posted on 4/21/17 at 12:31 pm to Meateye
It's come down to Barnett vs Reddick for me at 11. As long as none of the top defenders fall. We can choose either one and I'm good. It don't though Takk McKinley would be great at 32. What do you guys think? Then there's Malik McDowell later too.
This post was edited on 4/21/17 at 12:33 pm
Posted on 4/21/17 at 12:33 pm to Meateye
Tebow was also considered one of the greatest college QB's of all time.
Guess we should have taken him too. Or Jarvis Jones as well.
Guess we should have taken him too. Or Jarvis Jones as well.
Posted on 4/21/17 at 12:35 pm to Meateye
Barnett 39 games
Garrett 34 games
Gotta love zero context
Garrett 34 games
Gotta love zero context
Posted on 4/21/17 at 12:36 pm to Fun Bunch
You could also find far more examples of guys who put on a show at the combine and were complete busts in the league
Posted on 4/21/17 at 12:38 pm to SaintLSUnAtl
production in college is always only a part of the glimpse looking towards projection in NFL.
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