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Message
re: Does everyone deserve equal rights?
Posted on 2/5/14 at 8:47 am to Revelator
Posted on 2/5/14 at 8:47 am to Revelator
quote:
If I didn't believe in a Creator, I could easily be convinced that large portions of humanity don't deserve to live.
That simply speaks poorly of you, not those who lack the same belief as you.
It isn't about "deserving" to live, it's simply understanding that history makes it blatantly obvious that rights and morals are determined by cultures and are no inherent. Even our most base "moral", don't kill others, varies from people to people and has a very big biological aspect. Any "base" morals we have can also be demonstrated in higher order animals.
2
Posted on 2/5/14 at 8:47 am to Qwerty
quote:
I frankly don't care about your opinion of what is right and wrong. How is it more valid than mine? Which means there really isn't right or wrong, just opinions without the backing of any moral reality.
These rights and morals are only valid when they are commonly accepted and enforced. Sure, you can practice your own morality, but if it involves routinely violating another individual and/or their property, you will probably face some consequences.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 8:51 am to HempHead
Yep. Morality truly is nothing more than what the local herd says it is. In our case, that herd just happens to be exceptionally large.
We are not nearly as special as we think we are.
We are not nearly as special as we think we are.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 8:53 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Human history shows very clearly that morality and our views on what constitutes just treatment of others is all relative. This idea that morality is somehow objective or that everyone has inalienable rights is a very western concept.
inalienable - unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor.
And here is the problem with what you wrote. It can't be inalienable rights if they are granted by government or man because they could be revoked. Only a Creator could guarantee such rights.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 8:54 am to Revelator
Yes, but there are actually very few rights. What most people understand to be rights are actually privileges. And everyone does not deserve equal privileges.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 8:55 am to Revelator
And, as human experience has shown, there is nothing inalienable or guaranteed about them.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 8:56 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
That simply speaks poorly of you, not those who lack the same belief as you.
Why? What benefit does the weak, poor, unhealthy have to society if when they die, they cease to exist? It would be better off for both sides if these were eliminated.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:00 am to Revelator
quote:
And here is the problem with what you wrote. It can't be inalienable rights if they are granted by government or man because they could be revoked. Only a Creator could guarantee such rights.
They are inalienable only because we say they are. To most of the humans who have ever lived, such a concept would be laughable.
Just because you deify something doesn't actually make it so.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:01 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
They are inalienable only because we say they are. To most of the humans who have ever lived, such a concept would be laughable.
That's like telling someone that everlasting life has limitations.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:02 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Yep. Morality truly is nothing more than what the local herd says it is. In our case, that herd just happens to be exceptionally large.
So the holocaust is not really evil, we just call it evil because most humans agree that it fits the definition of this thing we made up called "evil." But that "evil" doesn't really exist it's just something we've made up.
Am I close?
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:03 am to catholictigerfan
quote:Where is there a govt. not stealing property?
right to private property (meaning government shouldn't step in a just steal property
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:03 am to Revelator
quote:
What benefit does the weak, poor, unhealthy have to society if when they die, they cease to exist?
Just because morality is relative doesn't mean I can't or shouldn't treat people in manners similar to how I want to be treated. The golden rule is as much biology as anything. If you want to run around killing people fine, just done be surprised when they kill you in return.
quote:
It would be better off for both sides if these were eliminated.
The universe certainly wouldn't mourn them due to some universal moral code, but again as thinking creatures trying to create a society in which we can coexist it is in our best interest to allow each other some basic rights.
I'm sure you don't believe that chimpanzees or dolphins or great apes have souls, yet they all exhibit basicmorality among each other. It is biologically beneficial to each individual's survival.
This post was edited on 2/5/14 at 9:06 am
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:04 am to CJM18
quote:
Am I close?
Pretty much. Welcome to nihilism, it's exhausting.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:05 am to Blue Velvet
quote:
Where is there a govt. not stealing property?
no where and I think it is wrong for the Gov to take property from rightful property owning citizens
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:06 am to catholictigerfan
Do you include one's earnings as property?
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:06 am to Revelator
quote:
That's like telling someone that everlasting life has limitations.
Um...what?
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:07 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:
Um...what?
That's what I thought, too. I'm not entirely sure what the point is.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:08 am to catholictigerfan
quote:So you propose no govt.?
it is wrong for the Gov to take property from rightful property owning citizens
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:11 am to CJM18
quote:
So the holocaust is not really evil, we just call it evil because most humans agree that it fits the definition of this thing we made up called "evil."
If you are asking if it was inherently "evil" based on some universal moral code, then no. The laws of the universe and nature didn't mourn any of the jews who were killed.
However, if you are asking if it was evil based on humanity's definition of evil in the time and place in which it occurred then absolutely. It was evil because the basic rules that western society had agreed to exist upon were violated and it threatened our way of life. It was evil because we said it was evil.
quote:
But that "evil" doesn't really exist it's just something we've made up.
Evil exist if the society in question says it exists. Slavery wasn't considered evil in 1700, even by most slaves. It was just the way it was.
Posted on 2/5/14 at 9:13 am to Revelator
quote:
Why? What benefit does the weak, poor, unhealthy have to society if when they die, they cease to exist? It would be better off for both sides if these were eliminated.
Interesting that the most "christian" among us would be the least moral without the fear of god hanging over their heads.
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