Tesla is a crappy car - Page 18 - TigerDroppings.com

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Redbone
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

The only reason almost anything gets made in the US is because of tax breaks, credits, or incentives
quote:

Do you have any idea how many industries have been kickstarted or propped up by government funding at one point or another?

Lots of claims in this post and the next one with no facts to back it up. Also, tax breaks is one thing. Grants is a completely different animal.


quote:

What do you think government funding of our highways did for car sales?


Does this really apply here?? Really??






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Redbone
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

It's pretty well agreed upon that Tesla has the right strategy by targeting the high end first. Margins are better, and that allows for more R&D to bring costs down to make mass-market cars profitable. It's a very common and successful strategy in many industries.


Who agreed?? Margins may be better per car. I doubt the total income would be better. We will never know but your argument is generic. It's not a common strategy in any company that I know.






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Redbone
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

Everything is finite, right?


No


Ummmmm ..... what isn't??






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Korkstand
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

Does this really apply here?? Really??

Is it not a sufficient rebuttal to CAD's argument?






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Korkstand
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Member since Nov 2003
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

Who agreed?? Margins may be better per car. I doubt the total income would be better.
The total long-term income is better with a cheaper, mass-market car, no doubt. That is the goal for Tesla. The problem is it takes too long for those investments to pay off. So the strategy is to sell higher-margin products first, which has a faster ROI but a limited top-end profit potential. It is often good enough to fund more investment, though, which can support higher volume, lower margin products.
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It's not a common strategy in any company that I know.

Probably because most of the companies that you know are already established and sell mass-market products. Don't get me wrong, starting on the low end and shooting for the mass market can work, too. It's just hard for a young company to do for big ticket, non-essential items like electric cars.






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colorchangintiger
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

Who agreed?? Margins may be better per car. I doubt the total income would be better. We will never know but your argument is generic. It's not a common strategy in any company that I know.


Works great for apple.






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UL-SabanRival
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

electricity is derived from magic beans. you don't need that nasty oil & gas industry if you just had a car that ran off batteries.

No one debates that fossil fuels are used to generate electricity, but as I said, it's not a net gain for oil and gas if more and more people go electric, especially with continued development of alternate technologies and use of existing technologies, like nuclear.

And thib, the very nature of fossil fuels makes them finite. If you think they'll last for centuries, that's one thing, but they are finite. No one debates that.






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UL-SabanRival
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


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Redbone

I agree with what you say, but you and others seem to be saying that we shouldn't even pursue things like this until we run out or start to run out, as if fossil fuels were the best, only way to go - until it's gone. Then we'll try something else. That doesn't sound like a great plan, and it's kind of narrow-minded.

The idea isn't that we're trying to find something to run on when the oil runs out. We're trying to find other energy sources. I don't have some hippie liberal desire to kill the evil oil companies, but shite dude. We never ran out of wind why aren't all boats sailing vessels?

So it's a Tesla for local driving. If they build a charging station. Great. I'll never pay to make my car go ever again. If not, fine. It's still sleek and slick and shit, and much faster than your car.

For long distance, 69 Cadillac convertible. Black and gold one. frick yeah. My Saintsillac.



This post was edited on 11/12 at 9:30 pm


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Redbone
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:


Is it not a sufficient rebuttal to CAD's argument?



No.






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Redbone
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

That is the goal for Tesla.


If you say so. The burr under my saddle isn't their strategy, as bad as it looks to us dummies. I'm aggravated at these companies taking money from a broke gov't to build a car that cannot be used for anything but a conversation piece or for short errands. Get the gov't out of this. Let this company make it's way in life as so many other startup companies have had to do.






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Redbone
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


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..but you and others seem to be saying that we shouldn't even pursue things like this until we run out..


I fly solo perhaps but my idea is for these electric car makers build their cars and see if the market is there. Also, they should partner with service stations to install charging stations. Get the gov't out of the picture. I would like to see the companies thrive but not on my tax dollar.

Yeah, we will need alternate power in the future but a tax dollar supported startup company isn't the answer. You can't force the cars on the masses. If they don't sell until fossil fuels begin to run out it isn't by anyone's plan. The free market is supply and demand as I'm sure you know.

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We never ran out of wind why aren't all boats sailing vessels?


This is due to non-gov't funded businesses developing a better way and selling it to the public. If electric cars are better people will buy them.

I am not anti-electric car. I want the companies to build these vehicles while getting the same tax breaks as any other company. I would like to see them succeed. I want charging stations at every service station, motel, etc. I wish these business nothing but good. I just don't want to pay for it.

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, and much faster than your car.


Be careful who you challenge. That black Camaro in the shop is hiding a 997 h.p. turbo charged gas burner under the hood.

quote:

69 Cadillac convertible.


oww, now you got my attention.






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Korkstand
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

I'm aggravated at these companies taking money from a broke gov't
The majority of the "benefits" Tesla gets comes from other car companies, not the government. I'm sure you've heard about them selling credits. They are awarded these credits (which cost taxpayers nothing) for building electric vehicles, and they end up with more credits than they need to avoid being fined. They sell these credits to other manufacturers who don't make enough low emissions vehicles to earn as many credits as required.

By the way, Nissan has also managed to earn more credits than necessary, and they are selling them just like Tesla. Where is all the hate for them?

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a car that cannot be used for anything but a conversation piece or for short errands
You know this is far from the truth. Enough with the hyperbole. Tens of thousands of Nissan Leaf owners get by, and the Model S has almost three times the range.

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Get the gov't out of this. Let this company make it's way in life as so many other startup companies have had to do.

Hm. Like the oil industry? Oh wait, the government helped to kickstart that industry in 1916 with very generous tax advantages, and it received a further boost in 1926. The government's goal and role was to promote domestic oil production, and it worked.

Perhaps you mean the telecommunications industry? Oh wait, if not for government intervention, one single company would probably control all of our communications. In 1968, the FCC ruled that non-AT&T devices could be connected to their network. Thank goodness the government got involved, because this decision gave rise to fax machines, modems, and the internet. Not to mention the government research and funding that actually created the internet and allowed companies like Google and TD to exist.

Maybe if we go further back, to when the railroad industry was getting cranked up, we can find an example of a major industry, in a free market, being able to do what the country needs. Nope, two brand new companies were granted 175 million acres of land (the size of Texas) in exchange for building the transcontinental railroad. Do you hate Union Pacific for being gifted 10% of the entire country's land, or love them for enabling our economy and country to flourish like never before?



It's pretty hard to find an example of a true free market. And thankfully so, otherwise America would be hopelessly left behind by the countries whose governments recognized the industries that needed help, and did what needed to be done in order to promote their businesses and economies.






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Korkstand
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

I am not anti-electric car. I want the companies to build these vehicles while getting the same tax breaks as any other company. I would like to see them succeed. I want charging stations at every service station, motel, etc. I wish these business nothing but good. I just don't want to pay for it.

Not many tax dollars are going to this. We are only talking about a total of $7.5 billion from the start through 2019. Less than $1billion per year. A relatively small investment in a fledgling industry that will, in turn, spur private investment in the almost-everywhere charging stations you claim to want to see. Not only that, but it will promote private investment in new charging tech, infrastructure, and countless other things to help support more electric vehicles on the road. None of that will happen if we don't get electric cars on the road. And there is a snowball's chance in hell that electric vehicles would gain traction anywhere near as fast if not for government action.

So, is your next question why do we even need electric cars in the first place? Some people will say we need them for environmental reasons. Some buy that, some don't.. I'm not even going to get into it. A bigger concern is, while oil might be plentiful for 50, 100, or even 1000 years, one day it will run out. Or at least it will get so hard to access whatever is left that costs will skyrocket. How much warning will we have before we reach that point? Will we know long enough beforehand that we will have time to build the necessary infrastructure to support alternate-fuel vehicles?

But in my opinion, the best reason to shift to electric vehicles is that there are numerous and plentiful sources of "fuel". Fossil fuels, water, wind, nuclear, solar... our fuel costs don't have to be dependent on the fluctuations in the price of a single commodity. With so many sources, electric cars seem to be the best bet for long-term stability in the cost of transportation.

I think that's something worth investing in.






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Lima Whiskey
Virginia Fan
Member since Apr 2013
873 posts

re: Tesla is a crappy car


This seemed pertinent.

Unclean at any Speed

quote:

The idea of electrifying automobiles to get around their environmental shortcomings isn’t new. Twenty years ago, I myself built a hybrid electric car that could be plugged in or run on natural gas. It wasn’t very fast, and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t safe. But I was convinced that cars like mine would help reduce both pollution and fossil-fuel dependence.

I was wrong.


quote:

The National Academies’ assessment didn’t ignore those difficult-to-measure realities. It drew together the effects of vehicle construction, fuel extraction, refining, emissions, and other factors. In a gut punch to electric-car advocates, it concluded that the vehicles’ lifetime health and environmental damages (excluding long-term climatic effects) are actually greater than those of gasoline-powered cars. Indeed, the study found that an electric car is likely worse than a car fueled exclusively by gasoline derived from Canadian tar sands!


quote:

North American power station emissions also largely occur outside of urban areas, as do the damaging consequences of nuclear- and fossil-fuel extraction. And that leads to some critical questions. Do electric cars simply move pollution from upper-middle-class communities in Beverly Hills and Virginia Beach to poor communities in the backwaters of West Virginia and the nation’s industrial exurbs? Are electric cars a sleight of hand that allows peace of mind for those who are already comfortable at the expense of intensifying asthma, heart problems, and radiation risks among the poor and politically disconnected?


LINK






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TigerBait1127
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

This seemed pertinent.









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Redbone
LSU Fan
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Member since Sep 2012
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

We are only talking about a total of $7.5 billion from the start through 2019.




This is not 1916 ... or even 1968. Nissan is not pertinent here due to being an up and running company. Companies start up every day without any gov't assistance. The price of oil is dropping due to new findings ... and that is with Obomba stopping drilling where he can.

We have gone 360 here on gov't assistance here. I maintain that the gov't is broke. Get them completely out of this and see if the demand is there. If it isn't discontinue this venture until these electric car companies can sustain themselves.



This post was edited on 11/13 at 8:01 am


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Korkstand
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Member since Nov 2003
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

quote:

We are only talking about a total of $7.5 billion from the start through 2019.

Yeah, that's not a lot. Less than $1billion per year is a drop in the bucket, especially considering how much private investment it encourages. Only time will tell whether it's a good investment of tax dollars, but I think in 10 years you will see that it was.

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This is not 1916 ... or even 1968.
Why does the date matter? I offered examples of tax dollars boosting industries that we now know were necessary, including the O&G industry that you so staunchly support. History shows that private investment does not do what's necessary to build and support a nation. Can you provide more compelling evidence to the contrary than the evidence I supplied supporting this point?
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Nissan is not pertinent here due to being an up and running company.
So your stance is that it's ok to support companies that have already made it, but not ok to support companies that are trying to make it? That's a pretty typical conservative thought process, it seems. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
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Get them completely out of this and see if the demand is there. If it isn't discontinue this venture until these electric car companies can sustain themselves.
Demand depends on costs, costs depend on investment, and investment depends on ROI. The ROI isn't yet attractive enough for the amount of investment necessary, and that's where government comes in. Just as it did in every other industry that we rely on today. It's a very simple concept. It's not socialism. It's a very capitalist idea to prepare your country to be the world leader in advancing technology, and to put money where it's needed to ensure that skilled jobs stay here as opposed to letting the free market outsource as many of them as possible to save costs.






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lsu480
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


You guys are still arguing about this?





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CAD703X
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


quote:

Tesla’s corporate fate is ultimately less interesting than the fact that so many people, especially progressives, have become so deeply invested in it — politically and psychologically, if not financially.

Tesla epitomizes the mutation of modern American liberalism. Once an ideology whose central concern was the plight of lunch-bucket working stiffs and oppressed minorities, liberalism is increasingly about environmentalism and related “quality of life” issues.

quote:

Tesla’s market capitalization, more than $17 billion, represents not only a possible government-aided stock bubble but also a huge societal opportunity cost.

Tesla’s Model S is, no doubt, a cool car. Whether it serves any public purpose commensurate with the public resources it has absorbed is another question.


WASHINGTON POST - Liberals' investment drives Tesla's sruvival






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Redbone
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re: Tesla is a crappy car


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Yeah, that's not a lot.
The fed. gov't wasn't broke in 1916 or even 1968. We are now so a billion here and a billion there DOES matter, especially when our technology will be of no use whatever at all with coming changes. You want to predict the future 10 years out? We want even have electricity to charge a radio controlled car.

quote:

So your stance is that it's ok to support companies that have already made it, but not ok to support companies that are trying to make it? That's a pretty typical conservative thought process, it seems. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever.


Yes, support what is proven. Your conclusion is subjective.

quote:

Demand depends on costs, costs depend on investment, and investment depends on ROI. The ROI isn't yet attractive enough for the amount of investment necessary,


BINGO!!! If it isn't there yet we throwing tax dollars into a waste basket. Producing cars that the populace doesn't want yet creates a glut and the entire business will come to a screeching halt. It becomes a waste of our money as other greenie ideas have.

You have good ideas however misplaced they are. You and I see the situation entirely different. Henry Ford's ideas were completely different. The first cars were built in back yards and shade trees with no gov't assistance. That compares to Tesla and such companies to me. Henry Ford had a market. He supplied cars to the masses for a lower price. Fuel was already available. Tesla wants invent, R&D, & supply with no fuel support. They have no market and yet they want tax dollars from a broken gov't to do all of this. If you think this is a wise idea I'll accept that. Personally I don't. This waste combined with much more will soon collapse this economy and this will all be for naught.

I do believe Lima Whiskey and CAD703X's post needs addressing so I'll respectively bow out. Thanks for the discussion.






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