If you need any more proof we need a PG - Page 4 - TigerDroppings.com

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corndeaux
New Orleans Pelicans Fan
Member since Sep 2009
5335 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:

When your Per 36 is lower than your actual numbers, then you may have a problem




how can anyone who plays more than 36 mpg not have a lower per36?

even lebron cant do that?






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GynoSandberg
LA-Lafayette Fan
Member since Jan 2006
34219 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


I didn't say he blows. I said he is average.

Those numbers are great. Volume shooters score a lot of points. It's a great accomishment when you can score at a high percentage.

And top 20 in assists for a PG? No way! That's awesome






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KG5989
New Orleans Saints Fan
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Member since Oct 2010
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re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


Top 20 assists in the entire league. He averages the same assists a game as Curry, Nash, Lawson, and Jennings. So he's top 15 in scoring and top 20 in assists in the entire NBA. Those 2 stats right there make him a top 20 guard player in the NBA.

Oh also the Blazers haven't had a serviceable back up PG the entire season until now with addition of Maynor. He's been there for 15 games. And since Maynor has been there, Lilliard is averaging 21.6 pts, 48.5% FG, 44.5% 3s. And again, as a rookie. He will improve, just like every young player does.

Ha he's average? Ok so what does a player have to average for you to considering them great? 30 and 15 shooting 55% from field and 45% from 3? Or just a great PER?




This post was edited on 3/28 at 3:27 pm


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GynoSandberg
LA-Lafayette Fan
Member since Jan 2006
34219 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:

how can anyone who plays more than 36 mpg not have a lower per36? even lebron cant do that?


Obviously only a handful of players average 36+ a game. They are usually your elite (ie not Lillard), which is why they are playing so many minutes.

But yes, guys like LBJ, Durant, Harden etc routinely exceed their per 36 minute stats.

Divide a particular stat by minutes played, x36.






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GynoSandberg
LA-Lafayette Fan
Member since Jan 2006
34219 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:

Top 20 assists in the entire league. He averages the same assists a game as Curry, Nash, Lawson, and Jennings. So he's top 15 in scoring and top 20 in assists in the entire NBA. Those 2 stats right there make him a top 20 guard player in the NBA.


You must have Monta Ellis penciled for the Hall of Fame

quote:

Ha he's average? Ok so what does a player have to average for you to considering them great? 30 and 15 shooting 55% from field and 45% from 3? Or just a great PER?


Yes, he's average. Do you understand he's a PG who averages 6.5 APG in 39mpg? Do you understand he's a pg who shoots 16 times a game inefficiently? Those numbers aren't good.

He can start by shooting less and passing more. He can have better shot selection. He's got the best scoring PF playing next to him and an up and coming SF. Use them.

CP is great. Parker is great. Nash is great. Rondo is great. They make their team better. They are the definition of great PGs.

Lillard is not great. Jennings is not great. Vasquez is not great. Conley isn't great.






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KG5989
New Orleans Saints Fan
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Member since Oct 2010
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re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


At worst Lillard is a Monte Ellis or Brandon Jennings. Those guys are damn good and have been all stars.

You do realize he's a rookie? He will grow each year and will become a more efficient player. People are jumping the gun on Lillard thinking this is the best he will be. His 1st season in the NBA and averages 19 points and 6.5 assists a game. Pretty damn good. He will get better each year.

Gravy isn't great. But he's serviceable for our team. Jennings is pretty good. So is Conley. Lillard is a rookie and putting up better #s then them. Curry is a PG that averages 6 assists and 38 mins a game. Isn't he considered elite?

And most rookie guards aren't efficient scorers. And his FG% for the season isn't bad, but it isn't good I agree with that. But he struggled early on just like most rookies. Since the all star break he is averaging 21 points, 6.6 assists, 47% from field, 44% from 3. Pretty damn good.

Aldridge is having a great year. He's using him. Not like Aldridge isn't getting his. Batum stated off great but for the past few months has had a wrist issue and can't shake it. He thought he broke it a few weeks ago. He's not shooting a lot because he's injured and has no confidence in his shot because of his wrist. He has even stated that he isn't going to shoot a lot because of his wrist. And I agree all those PGs are great. But Go look at the rookie numbers. Only guy that had numbers similar to Lillard was CP, and he scored 3 pts less and had 1 more assist. He also shot worse than Lillard.

Rome wasn't built in a day. He's a rookie. He will get better and become more efficient.



This post was edited on 3/28 at 4:17 pm


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GynoSandberg
LA-Lafayette Fan
Member since Jan 2006
34219 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:

At worst Lillard is a Monte Ellis or Brandon Jennings. Those guys are damn good and have been all stars.



Inefficient volume scorers aren't good. I dont care if they make all star teams or not.


quote:

Curry is a PG that averages 6 assists and 38 mins a game. Isn't he considered elite?


He shoots 45% from the field and 45% from 3. He's shot 507 three pointers. 45%.

quote:

But Go look at the rookie numbers. Only guy that had numbers similar to Lillard was CP, and he scored 3 pts less and had 1 more assist. He also shot worse than Lillard.


Chris Paul was a 20 year old rookie. Lillard is a 22 year old. Chris Paul had a PER of 22, Lillard is at 16.

Paul's age 22 season he was averaging 21/12 on 49% shooting. Led the league in assists and steals

You're banking on an inefficient 22 year old rookie getting a lot better. We shall see.






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danman6336
Duke Fan
Member since Jan 2005
13051 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


Yep, his rookie PER is average

Dude fricking sucks






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GynoSandberg
LA-Lafayette Fan
Member since Jan 2006
34219 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:


A Year For the Ages: 35.0
Runaway MVP Candidate: 30.0
Strong MVP Candidate: 27.5
Weak MVP Candidate: 25.0
Bona fide All-Star: 22.5
Borderline All-Star: 20.0
Solid 2nd option: 18.0
3rd Banana: 16.5
Pretty good player: 15.0
In the rotation: 13.0
Scrounging for minutes: 11.0
Definitely renting: 9.0
The Next Stop: DLeague 5.0



Damian Lillard: 15.47

He doesn't suck. He's average.






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KG5989
New Orleans Saints Fan
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re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


Doesn't matter the age. A 1st year player is a 1st year player regardless of age. It's not like Lillard was playing in the NBA the past 2 seasons. So Paul's 3rd year in the league he averaged those #s? Lets wait and see what Lillard averages in his 3rd year.


I'm not banking on him to get a whole lot better because he doesn't need to get a whole lot better. Turn 1 or 2 of his misses into makes and he will be around 46% shooter. Make 1 more assist a game and he will be averaging right about 8 a game.

PER is one of the most flawed player evaluator they have. If I play in 5 minutes a night and in those 5 minutes I score 5 points on 3 shots, with 2 assists and 2 Rebs, my PER would be as good as LBJ. PER doesn't take into account what a player actually does. It estimates. It doesn't take into account stamina or anything like that either. Usually when you play more minutes you get winded and tired. And that makes you miss shots, make stupid plays, turn it over, etc.

because you follow PER like its your religion and think the PER #s are actually legit. When in fact they are unrealistic numbers and there is no way of predicting what a player would do with X amount of minutes



This post was edited on 3/28 at 5:33 pm


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danman6336
Duke Fan
Member since Jan 2005
13051 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


Little resarch:

Lillard has a better rookie PER than Wall, Rondo, Rose, Holiday, D. Williams, B. Jennings, Westbrook, Parker, Steve Nash, or Rubio had as rookies

In fact, the only PGs in the league that had better PER as a rookie were Paul and Irving. both of which had PER's similar to Larry Bird and Magic Johnson's rookie seasons.

So yea, Lillard's PER doesn't touch Paul's rookie PER, but that also might be because Chris Paul's rookie season was fricking amazing, and a pretty high target to be drawing comparisons to.






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KG5989
New Orleans Saints Fan
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Member since Oct 2010
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re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


No average is 13. In the rotation. You must really think Drummnd is the next Wilt then. His PER is off the charts. According to his PER, he should be up for the MVP and is considered #2 center in the game.

Do you think Blatche, McGhee, and Brandin Wright are top 20 players? No, thought not. But according to the PER system they are bonafide all stars and 3 of the top 6 Cs in the game. . Therefore you're entire PER argument is flawed. Robin Lopez is a borderline all star according to PER and is better than Noah, Garnett, Monroe, and Vucevic.

Kyle O' Quinn has a PER of 19.26. He's a borderline all star that averages 4 points and 3 Rebs a game. What a stud.



This post was edited on 3/28 at 5:42 pm


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GynoSandberg
LA-Lafayette Fan
Member since Jan 2006
34219 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:

Lillard has a better rookie PER


Deron and Rubio were 21 year old rookies.

Wall, Rondo, Rose, Jennings, Westbrook were 20 year old rookies.

Holiday, Parker were 19 year old rookies.

Nash played 10 mpg.


These guys made huge strides because they were young when they got in the league. They played with NBA players and had NBA coaching.

Lillard spent 4 years at Weber State. He's 22 years old. He developed in the Big Sky conference.

quote:

No average is 13. In the rotation. You must really think Drummnd is the next Wilt then. His PER is off the charts. According to his PER, he should be up for the MVP and is considered #2 center in the game.

Do you think Blatche, McGhee, and Brandin Wright are top 20 players? No, thought not. But according to the PER system they are bonafide all stars and 3 of the top 6 Cs in the game. . Therefore you're entire PER argument is flawed. Robin Lopez is a borderline all star according to PER and is better than Noah, Garnett, Monroe, and Vucevic.

Kyle O' Quinn has a PER of 19.26. He's a borderline all star that averages 4 points and 3 Rebs a game. What a stud.


Im intelligent enough to decipher guys who play 10 MPG and guys who play substantial minutes. I know Drummond has been injured and plays limited minutes. I know Blatche, McGee, and Wright play under 20mpg.

Are you that dense or just that stupid that you cannot understand that?

You don't like the stat that Lillard is 26th amongst PGs who play 25+ minutes?

How about the top 10 guys in PER who play 30+ minutes?

1. Lebron
2. Durant
3. Paul
4. B. Lopez
5. Duncan
6. Griffin
7. D.Wade
8. Parker
9. Harden
10. Westbrook

derp derp. Those guys are just regarded as the best players in the NBA and are perennial MVPs year in and year out. Such a flawed stat






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danman6336
Duke Fan
Member since Jan 2005
13051 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


He played at Weber State. You're really telling me that extra 2 seasons of playing at Weber State aginast that rough and tumble Big Sky schedule made THAT big of a difference in him as a player.

That extra two years of playing Southern Utah and Idaho State just throws the entire argument of rookie PERs just totally out of the window?






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GynoSandberg
LA-Lafayette Fan
Member since Jan 2006
34219 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


Im saying his developmental years were spent playing in the college in the Big Sky.


The guys you listed, widely regarded as some of the top PGs in the league, spent their developmental years in the NBA.

It's not to say Lillard can't improve. I just think he needs to pass more and shoot less and his numbers will fall into place.

As of now he is an average player. You guys can argue til the cows come home that 19/7 is impressive for a guy who plays 39MPG and shoots 43%. I just don't agree.






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danman6336
Duke Fan
Member since Jan 2005
13051 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:

You guys can argue til the cows come home that 19/7 is impressive for a guy who plays 39MPG and shoots 43%. I just don't agree.
It is

For someone in his first NBA season






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KG5989
New Orleans Saints Fan
Das Boot
Member since Oct 2010
8738 posts
 Online 

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:

He developed in the Big Sky conference.


Well must of been a hell of a conference considering how he is playing during his rookie year. Age means nothing unless your a 35 year old rookie. A 1st year player is a 1st year player. So since Lillard played college for 4 years and developed some there, he can't develop more in the NBA? Since he was a 22 year old rookie when he got in the league he can't develop anymore. Yea that makes a lot of sense. Horrible premise.

Are you that dense to not understand that the PER is a freaking estimate and its impossible to say how a player will do if he gets X amount of minutes?? Because your awesome PER system doesn't decipher that. That's what PER does. Estimates how good a guy would be if he played X amount of minutes at the pace that he plays actual minutes.

No that stat does not bother me because PER is a flawed system, just like every evaluator. Only #s I look at are the ones that matter, like what the player actually does in games.

These are some of the guys ahead of Lillard who play 25+ a night in the PER list.
Rubio, Collison, Andre Miller, George Hill, Jeff Teague, Holiday, Ramon Sessions, Nate Robinsin, Lawson, Dragic, Isaiah Thomas, Rondo, Conley, Kemba Walker, Kyle Lowry, Eric Bledsoe, Tyreke Evans, Jose Calderon.

There is no way you believe most of thise guys are better than Lillard. Out of all these guys, there might be only 3-4 I would put on level with Lillard. Rondo, Holiday, and Lawson are the only ones for sure. Conley is a great floor leader and good defender, but he can't score that well and averages less assists than Lillard does. Miller was a baller but is getting up there in age. Rubio is good some nights then checks out other nights. Jose Calderon is listed as the #7 PG. Thats laughable. I'm a huge Kemba Walker fan, but Lillard is better than him. He's #12 PG on PER. Lowry as the #11 PG on PER. Not even gonna say anything about that.

And as far as the top 10 go, every player eval index pretty much has the exact same group of players. Not that hard to put that list together.



This post was edited on 3/28 at 6:31 pm


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GynoSandberg
LA-Lafayette Fan
Member since Jan 2006
34219 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:

For someone in his first NBA season


I mean, there are only 48 minutes in a game, and the dude is playing 40 of them. He's shooting 16 times a game (6 3Ps a game!) and is scoring only 19 points. He's a PG, mind you.

Year 22 seasons PER

Paul- 28.3
Westbrook- 23.6
Rose- 23.5
Wall- 19.9
Rondo- 18.8
Jennnings- 18.4
Parker- 18.0
Holiday- 17.6
Deron- 17.1
Rudio- 15.8 (off an ACL)

Lillard- 16.7

Again, if he plays less minutes and shoots less and pass more, he will be a better player. His team will be better.

And he shouldn't be ROY.






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danman6336
Duke Fan
Member since Jan 2005
13051 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


I'm sorry, but the whole age argument is totally faulty logic





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danman6336
Duke Fan
Member since Jan 2005
13051 posts

re: If you need any more proof we need a PG


quote:

And he shouldn't be ROY.
Ah, so the pages of Lillard argument has all been spurned on by sour grapes






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