re: Help settle a work debate, greatest heavyweight boxers

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Who ever says Ali is over rated is crazy. The dude didn't even get to fight in his prime. Tie between Ali and Tyson, Lewis is up there too though.

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He was in his prime in those fights before he was forced to stop. The Williams fight, the Folley fight, the Chuvalo fight, the Terrell fight. That was a man at the very peak of his powers. Who could do very little wrong in the ring.

Go watch that Zora Foley fight. Ali's entire strategy is to stay relatively close to Foley and wait for him to jab. And then avoid that jab by leaning backwards -- a move no other prominent boxer has ever even tried to pull off -- and then would immediately throw a right hand lead meant as a knock-out punch.

Think about that for a second. Think about how quickly jabs are thrown. To avoid a thrown jab by leaning back and then hitting your opponent with a straight right hand before the guy has even finished pulling the missed jab back to his face.

1. That is quite possibly the most fundamentally unsound maneuver a boxer could ever try.

2. Only a historically elite athlete like Ali had the ability to land a counterpunch in that fashion.

3. To actually use that counterpunch as an affirmative strategy is just mindblowing. He did it agaisnt Cleveland Williams as well. And those guys were the top contenders at the time. They weren't tomato cans, and yet Ali literally toyed with them like I might toy with my four year old nephew when I shadow box around with him.

My point here is that I think it is incorrect that Ali never reached his prime. I think he did, but I just would have loved to see three or four more years of it, because that guy fighting was poetry in motion.

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That fight was fought in high heat and humidity. Tyson would have wilted under those conditions and punched himself out. He never fought in a fight that remotely approached those conditions

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So because Tyson never fought in the heat and humidity of that day in Manilla, that means he would have lost the fight?

Great logic. So by extension, every fighter in history would have lost that fight.

Boxers who might have beaten Tyson in his prime:

Definitely:
pre-ban Ali
Young Foreman

Possibly:
Jack Johnson
Lennox Lewis

Boxers who would have been destroyed by Tyson in his prime:
Joe Frazier
Joe Louis
Marciano
post-ban Ali

You know a thread is miserable when bobbyray responds to himself

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I'm failing to follow you here.

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Clearly.

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So taking a guy at his very best makes the analysis subjective?

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I think you should look up the definition of subjective and report back.

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No, a fighter should be considered a top 5 heavyweight of all time if, at his best, he was one of the five best heavyweights of all time.

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Tyson wasn't, by any objective measure. Sorry.

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including Larry Holmes

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You know you're grasping at straws when you tout a victory against a 38 year old coming off nearly two years of inactivity and back-to-back losses. You can keep digging though.

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Boxers who would have been destroyed by Tyson in his prime:
Joe Frazier
Joe Louis
Marciano
post-ban Ali

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Frazier would have beat him imo.

Joe Louis would have beat Tyson, Joe is probably the greatest HW of all time.

He would have beat Marciano just because of size.

Post Ban Ali (I hate that I just used this phrase) would have beat Tyson handily. He was way too smart a fighter. If his rope a dope worked on a beast like Foreman you dont think it would have worked on Tyson?

Tyson was basically a 3 round slugger who happened to fight during a time with NO competition. His best win was against a 38 year old Larry Holmes.

Smart, well conditioned pros like Ali, Frazier, Lewis would have beat him. Hell, Buster Douglas knocked him into the next world. Holyfield?

Tyson is not even top 10 in my book. I think Sonny Liston beats him.

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Joe Louis would have beat Tyson, Joe is probably the greatest HW of all time.

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Mike Tyson would have completely manhandled Joe Louis. The fight wouldn't have gone past two rounds.

I'll accept your argument for post-ban Ali -- I'm sorry that I made you use that phrase -- as reasonable, but for the first three I posted, I just don't see a case can be made.

My thoughts on Frazier/Tyson have aleady been posted.

Sonny Liston is an interesting case. Nobody really knows how good he was. Clay just so completely and comprehensively dismantled him that it puts a serious damper on his legacy.