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Message
re: Help settle a work debate, greatest heavyweight boxers
Posted on 12/13/12 at 8:01 am to bobbyray21
Posted on 12/13/12 at 8:01 am to bobbyray21
quote:.
I'd like to just reiterate the general point that if somebody actually believes that Joe Frazier would have beaten Mike Tyson, they are either (a) clueless about boxing and/or (b) retarded
One man had a jaw, the other is Mike Tyson.
1
Posted on 12/13/12 at 8:05 am to bobbyray21
quote:
Before or after he got knocked out?
From the day Tyson stepped in the ring.
Tyson was so feared, light heavyweights were jumping at the chance to fight him.
Tyson feared no one because there was no one to fear.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 8:07 am to bobbyray21
quote:
And, let's be honest, resume comparisons in boxing are completely worthless. It's silly to do anything other than compare guys as they were at their very best.
Absolutely...I mean, why would anyone want to have an objective discussion about who Tyson actually defeated, when you can devolve into some mythical argument about what might have been?
Bottom line, in order to be considered one of the top 5 heavyweights of all-time (let alone top 3), you need to actually have defeated someone of note in the ring. We can discuss ad nauseam why that never happened with Tyson, but it doesn't change the fact it should be considered a major factor when ranking fighters.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 2:51 pm to Kickadawgitfeelsgood
quote:
One man had a jaw, the other is Mike Tyson.
Down Goes Frazier!
He displayed a great chin in this fight.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 3:13 pm to Kickadawgitfeelsgood
quote:
From the day Tyson stepped in the ring.
Tyson was so feared, light heavyweights were jumping at the chance to fight him.
Tyson feared no one because there was no one to fear.
Not clear if you are trying to be cute here or profound. Either way, you failed.
Tyson was bigger than Frazier, stronger than Frazier, faster hands than Frazier, faster feet than Frazier, hit harder than Frazier, was a better athlete than Frazier, and was more technically sound than Frazier.
Basically, everything that Joe Frazier did well in the boxing ring, Mike Tyson did even better.
Where Frazier simply bobbed and weaved, Tyson bobbed, weaved, bent, crouched, slipped, and the like...and did so in a more exaggerated manner than Frazier.
Where Frazier would work himself inside and throw the left hook, Tyson would work himself inside and throw two left hooks and three right hooks before the other guy even knew what hit him.
I mean, I simply cannot stress enough that this would not have been a close fight. Tyson would comprehensively dismantle Frazier. It wouldn't have been a close fight.
Tyson Highlights
Frazier Highlights
Tyson defense
Frazier defense
ETA: by "defense" I mean those clips are examples of the defensive skills of the fighters.
This post was edited on 12/13/12 at 3:15 pm
Posted on 12/13/12 at 3:25 pm to brgfather129
quote:
Absolutely...I mean, why would anyone want to have an objective discussion about who Tyson actually defeated,
I'm failing to follow you here. So taking a guy at his very best makes the analysis subjective?
quote:
when you can devolve into some mythical argument about what might have been
FYI: every argument about boxing devolves into a mythical argument about what might have been. This has always been the case, and always will be the case.
What if Marciano had fought anybody worth their weight in dog shite?
What if Ali hadn't had his prime taken away from him?
What if Cus D'Amato had lived five more years?
What if Lennox Lewis enjoyed vagina?
What if Jack Johnson enjoyed white women just slightly less than he did?
And on and on and on. If you don't like arguments that devolve into mythical hypotheticals about what might have been, then I wouldn't recommend arguing boxing.
quote:
Bottom line, in order to be considered one of the top 5 heavyweights of all-time (let alone top 3), you need to actually have defeated someone of note in the ring. We can discuss ad nauseam why that never happened with Tyson, but it doesn't change the fact it should be considered a major factor when ranking fighters.
No, a fighter should be considered a top 5 heavyweight of all time if, at his best, he was one of the five best heavyweights of all time. Tyson destroyed eveybody in his path -- including Larry Holmes -- until unraveled. It's a bummer than he unraveled, and it killed his career. But it has no bearing on how good he was before he unraveled.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 3:29 pm to TheOcean
Let Lennox fight Ali in their prime. I would like to see Lennox beat Ali. Lennox is George Forman with intelligence.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 3:31 pm to bobbyray21
quote:
Tyson was bigger than Frazier, stronger than Frazier, faster hands than Frazier, faster feet than Frazier, hit harder than Frazier, was a better athlete than Frazier, and was more technically sound than Frazier.
Tyson never could fight past 4 rounds. This is when bums like Buster Douglas knocked his arse out or he had to resort to biting someones ear!
We are talking about Joe Frazier here, not Marvis Frazier, one of Tysons big wins!
Tyson couldnt make it through a 15 round Ali/Frazier III type fight if his life depended on it.
You've fricked up this entire thread.
This post was edited on 12/13/12 at 3:39 pm
Posted on 12/13/12 at 3:50 pm to braindeadboxer
quote:
Larry Holmes
It's a shame it took 11 posts for Larry's name to get mentioned.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 3:55 pm to peopleschamp
quote:
Lennox is George Forman with intelligence.
Very True.
But man, Lennox's long reach could allow him to control almost every fight with that Jab.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 4:03 pm to Sterling Archer
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsy
Mike Tyson.
Jack Dempsy
Mike Tyson.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 4:46 pm to bobbyray21
quote:
He displayed a great chin in this fight.
George Foreman? really? He probably had the biggest punch of any of them in the group.
Your ignorance of boxing history is entertaining.
If you think some of those tomato cans Tyson fought frustrated him, Ali would have made him cry.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 4:53 pm to Kickadawgitfeelsgood
quote:
George Foreman? really? He probably had the biggest punch of any of them in the group.
In his short prime he would have beat Tyson to a pulp.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 6:25 pm to pleading the fifth
Who ever says Ali is over rated is crazy. The dude didn't even get to fight in his prime. Tie between Ali and Tyson, Lewis is up there too though.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 6:51 pm to bomber77
quote:
Frazier could have beat Tyson. Joe is underrated. No one has a problem putting Ali at the top but they forget how close Joe was to taking 2 out of three from Ali.
Ali/Frazier III is the greatest fight I've ever seen.
pre-ban Ali.
Different guy than the guy in those Frazier fights.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 6:59 pm to bomber77
quote:
Tyson never could fight past 4 rounds. This is when bums like Buster Douglas knocked his arse out or he had to resort to biting someones ear!
Not true at all. Tyson was in great shape when trained by Rooney. Him knocking out guys in the first round is not an argument that he lacked endurance.
Also please make note of the strict definition of Tyson's prime. There is an entire thread devoted to it.
quote:
We are talking about Joe Frazier here, not Marvis Frazier, one of Tysons big wins!
Thanks for the clarification.
quote:
Tyson couldnt make it through a 15 round Ali/Frazier III type fight if his life depended on it.
The Thrilla in Manilla was a fight between two washed up fighters. Tyson wouldn't make it through fifteen rounds against either of the guys as they appeared in that fight...because he would have knocked them out well before then.
quote:
You've fricked up this entire thread.
Forgive me for advancing coherent arguments that have allowed the thread to continue. Stated differently, blow me.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 7:00 pm to TXGunslinger10
quote:
It's a shame it took 11 posts for Larry's name to get mentioned.
I gave him his propers here: LINK
Posted on 12/13/12 at 7:11 pm to Kickadawgitfeelsgood
quote:
George Foreman? really? He probably had the biggest punch of any of them in the group.
Whoah back the truck up dude. You said Frazier had a great chin. I'm pointing out that it wasn't good enough to not get knocked on the ground about 15 times in three rounds against Foreman. You replay that "Whoah, but Foreman could hit hard". Yeah, of course he could. But he could also hit hard when he fought Ali, who made him look foolish for 8 rounds before sparing him further embarrassment and knocking him out. And he could also hit hard when he got outpointed by Jimmy Young, an above average heavyweight and nothing more.
So how good was Frazier's chin?
quote:
Your ignorance of boxing history is entertaining.
My ignorance of boxing history? Because I can recogize that Tyson is a better fighter than Joe Frazier? Whatever makes you feel better, buddy.
quote:
f you think some of those tomato cans Tyson fought frustrated him, Ali would have made him cry.
pre-ban Ali would have beaten Tyson, but Joe Frazier never fought pre-ban Ali. So I'm not understanding what point you are trying to make here.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 7:14 pm to bobbyray21
Please stop saying pre-ban ali. Please, please, please.
Posted on 12/13/12 at 7:16 pm to bobbyray21
quote:
The Thrilla in Manilla was a fight between two washed up fighters. Tyson wouldn't make it through fifteen rounds against either of the guys as they appeared in that fight
That fight was fought in high heat and humidity. Tyson would have wilted under those conditions and punched himself out. He never fought in a fight that remotely approached those conditions.
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