- My Forums
- Tiger Rant
- LSU Recruiting
- SEC Rant
- Saints Talk
- Pelicans Talk
- More Sports Board
- Fantasy Sports
- Golf Board
- Soccer Board
- O-T Lounge
- Tech Board
- Home/Garden Board
- Outdoor Board
- Health/Fitness Board
- Movie/TV Board
- Book Board
- Music Board
- Political Talk
- Money Talk
- Fark Board
- Gaming Board
- Travel Board
- Food/Drink Board
- Ticket Exchange
- TD Help Board
Customize My Forums- View All Forums
- Show Left Links
- Topic Sort Options
- Trending Topics
- Recent Topics
- Active Topics
Started By
Message
Do formations exist?
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:07 pm
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:07 pm
I've been thinking a lot about tactics lately, because I'm bored, and I've been thinking a lot about formations. I think video games have influenced a lot of how we think the game is played. Maybe we've begun to think of formations as plug and play, when managers don't seem to think that way. For them positioning is more important, spacing is more important, and movement at the correct time is more important. I don't mean to imply that formations were not once extremely important. When the sport was much more rigid, formations like the W-M and the catenacchio were extremely important. But with the advent of total football, rigid formations became obsolete, and what we were left with was positioning, spacing, and the individual's tendencies in a team context.
For example, Fabio Capello said,
I think the point that Capello is trying to make is that players don't neatly fit into formations, that the arrangement of players in play is so fluid that for him, his only anchor point was a target man around which the entire play revolved. Of course, Capello was talking about offensive positioning, and I'm sure he would say something differently about defensive positioning.
Slaven Bilic, former Croatia coach, sort of adds to this point. He says,
I think the point for Bilic is that formations do nothing to indicate the way the game is actually played. What does a 4-5-1 mean when you are defending ten behind the ball? You can have infinite permutations of spacing because the game is fluid. Obviously you can interpret where players are playing, but the term 4-5-1 means nothing in a practical sense. No one can tell me that there is a real difference between a 4-4-2 and a 4-4-1-1. Or a 4-4-1-1 and a 4-2-3-1. Or a 4-3-3 and a 4-1-4-1.
Broadly speaking, there are differences between a 3 man back line and a 3 man midfield, but in the way those systems are employed on the field can be so nuanced that they move beyond simple numerical descriptions.
In my view, formations are the patterns the viewer attempts to impose on the game, since they see the field much differently than the player or the manager. That doesn't mean they are meaningless, but rather interpretive schematics of fluid situations. I think with the explosion of tactical writing since Zonal Marking, we tend to think of formations in too narrow a manner, though I think people are on the right track. When someone says a team needs to switch formations, what they really mean is that a team needs to find more space. Players still have positions, where their natural tendencies are codified into what they can and cannot do.
I think the modern game is about space, about the defense denying space and the attack finding space. In that way Pep's Barcelona teams were revolutionary, because he figured out that most teams ignored the fact that as the field became more compact in the final third, the wider the field became. So as teams denied space in front of goal, they left space in wide areas undermanned, which is where Pep's teams could move the ball without pressure, drawing the opposition up the field again, and creating chances from incisive passing. The real innovation that Mourinho made against Pep in that 2010 Inter-Barca game was simply refusing to move his team up the field, with or without the ball, which disrupted everything about Barca's game.
Spacing is also why a player like Thomas Mueller is so effective. He literally does nothing at a world class level except to find space and finish. He's not a superb dribbler, he's a decent enough passer, crosser, but as this article points out, he's excellent at finding space.
My point here is that I think the way we talk about formations should attempt to resemble what actually happens on the field rather than what the formation tells us they should do. Or we should think and talk about space more than we do, since a formation implies a static situation and things on the field are never static.
Now there are situations when talking about a formation is useful, and for me that comes in terms of defensive positioning, specifically the positioning of the CBs with the CM's. This little box of space is the most highly contested on the whole field, which is why you always see GK's shout at players who don't close down free players in this region quick enough. But even formations don't really describe accurately what goes on in that region.
TL;DR-Do formations really exist? Read it.
For example, Fabio Capello said,
quote:
when asked after the game against Belarus whether England were playing a 4-4-1-1 or 4-2-3-1, manager Fabio Capello bluntly dismissed such notions. “These figures are stupid,” he said. “In the modern game, the only formation is 9-1.”
I think the point that Capello is trying to make is that players don't neatly fit into formations, that the arrangement of players in play is so fluid that for him, his only anchor point was a target man around which the entire play revolved. Of course, Capello was talking about offensive positioning, and I'm sure he would say something differently about defensive positioning.
Slaven Bilic, former Croatia coach, sort of adds to this point. He says,
quote:
Systems are dying. Like 4-5-1, what does it mean? It’s only for journalists or at the beginning of each half. When defending, great teams want many behind the ball. When attacking, players from all sides. We have to be compact, narrow to each other. Italy won the 2006 World Cup with nothing like the [defensive] Italy you usually think of. They finished the semi-final against Germany with Del Piero, Gilardino, Iaquinta and Totti — four strikers. And two full-backs bombing up. It’s about the movement of 10 players now.
I think the point for Bilic is that formations do nothing to indicate the way the game is actually played. What does a 4-5-1 mean when you are defending ten behind the ball? You can have infinite permutations of spacing because the game is fluid. Obviously you can interpret where players are playing, but the term 4-5-1 means nothing in a practical sense. No one can tell me that there is a real difference between a 4-4-2 and a 4-4-1-1. Or a 4-4-1-1 and a 4-2-3-1. Or a 4-3-3 and a 4-1-4-1.
Broadly speaking, there are differences between a 3 man back line and a 3 man midfield, but in the way those systems are employed on the field can be so nuanced that they move beyond simple numerical descriptions.
In my view, formations are the patterns the viewer attempts to impose on the game, since they see the field much differently than the player or the manager. That doesn't mean they are meaningless, but rather interpretive schematics of fluid situations. I think with the explosion of tactical writing since Zonal Marking, we tend to think of formations in too narrow a manner, though I think people are on the right track. When someone says a team needs to switch formations, what they really mean is that a team needs to find more space. Players still have positions, where their natural tendencies are codified into what they can and cannot do.
I think the modern game is about space, about the defense denying space and the attack finding space. In that way Pep's Barcelona teams were revolutionary, because he figured out that most teams ignored the fact that as the field became more compact in the final third, the wider the field became. So as teams denied space in front of goal, they left space in wide areas undermanned, which is where Pep's teams could move the ball without pressure, drawing the opposition up the field again, and creating chances from incisive passing. The real innovation that Mourinho made against Pep in that 2010 Inter-Barca game was simply refusing to move his team up the field, with or without the ball, which disrupted everything about Barca's game.
Spacing is also why a player like Thomas Mueller is so effective. He literally does nothing at a world class level except to find space and finish. He's not a superb dribbler, he's a decent enough passer, crosser, but as this article points out, he's excellent at finding space.
My point here is that I think the way we talk about formations should attempt to resemble what actually happens on the field rather than what the formation tells us they should do. Or we should think and talk about space more than we do, since a formation implies a static situation and things on the field are never static.
Now there are situations when talking about a formation is useful, and for me that comes in terms of defensive positioning, specifically the positioning of the CBs with the CM's. This little box of space is the most highly contested on the whole field, which is why you always see GK's shout at players who don't close down free players in this region quick enough. But even formations don't really describe accurately what goes on in that region.
TL;DR-Do formations really exist? Read it.
This post was edited on 8/1/14 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:09 pm to crazy4lsu
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:12 pm to crazy4lsu
tl-dr much past the first paragraph but I can tell where you are going and I totally agree and have been saying the same thing for years.
Of course, coming from me this may make you re-think your entire premise.
Of course, coming from me this may make you re-think your entire premise.
This post was edited on 8/1/14 at 12:14 pm
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:14 pm to crazy4lsu
I think formations are vastly overrated. The only thing I find significant is the number of defenders on the back line. The rest is so fluid, particularly in attack.
There's
a) Defensive shape
b) Attacking shape
A) is pretty solid -- two banks of four, 10 behind the ball, etc.
B) Is fluid especially for upper echelon teams, and players play more of a role than a position.
I'll go back and read all of your post...just skimmed it.
There's
a) Defensive shape
b) Attacking shape
A) is pretty solid -- two banks of four, 10 behind the ball, etc.
B) Is fluid especially for upper echelon teams, and players play more of a role than a position.
I'll go back and read all of your post...just skimmed it.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:15 pm to RandySavage
quote:
Of course, coming from me this may make you re-think your entire premise.
Haha, not at all. I actually like your thoughts. If everyone thought the same thing there would be no reason for this board.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:16 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
Spacing is also why a player like Thomas Mueller is so effective. He literally does nothing at a world class level except to find same and finish. He's not a superb dribbler, he's a decent enough passer, crosser, but as this article points out, he's excellent at finding space.
Muller's run against Brazil to set up Klose's goal (the second) was goddamn beautiful. I think about it randomly. It was so intelligent and perfectly timed. I think Kroos played him the ball. A thing of beauty.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:20 pm to Stewie Griffin
quote:
a) Defensive shape
b) Attacking shape
I prefer to think of it as spacing. A winger who is fifteen yards away from his fullback is much more exposed than a winger who is ten yards from his fullback. But the difference of these five yards can mean a lot in terms of attacking. Attacking shape affects defensive shape and vice versa.
For me there are four phases of the game.
1)Defensive set
2)Transition from defending to attacking
3)Attacking set
4)Transition from attacking to defending
I will write more about this when I come back from the gym.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:20 pm to crazy4lsu
Yes. Formations exist. The best formation is a parked bus.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:29 pm to crazy4lsu
i don't think formations don't exist, but they certainly are more malleable than the numbers suggest. another clear flaw, other than the ones you mentioned, with the standard numbering of formations is that it only captures some measure of depth (how many players are in a bank or however you want to describe that) but fails to capture width. arsenal pretty much ran out the same "formation" all of last season, but how it was played and player positions were so very different depending on the personnel.
it is interesting that capello mocked formations by saying the 9-1 deal, because defensive teams by far seem to have the most set positional zones, or what we would think of as formations.
i think formations are useful, but i think we could use more names for the roles players play in to describe what they do. for instance, how Robben plays RW is very different from Theo which is very different from Jesus Navas. even though players, especially attackers, are more apt to float around these days, it's pretty rare that they wholly abandon those positional zones after the start of the match. they will stray into different spaces throughout the course of the match, but the zone they start in his generally the zone they'll return to when the run of play peters out a bit.
it is interesting that capello mocked formations by saying the 9-1 deal, because defensive teams by far seem to have the most set positional zones, or what we would think of as formations.
i think formations are useful, but i think we could use more names for the roles players play in to describe what they do. for instance, how Robben plays RW is very different from Theo which is very different from Jesus Navas. even though players, especially attackers, are more apt to float around these days, it's pretty rare that they wholly abandon those positional zones after the start of the match. they will stray into different spaces throughout the course of the match, but the zone they start in his generally the zone they'll return to when the run of play peters out a bit.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:31 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
I will write more about this when I come back from the gym.
How often do you simultaneously get swole and think about soccer tactics?
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:35 pm to crazy4lsu
I think jose thinks formations exist by the fact he's weeded out extremely talented players that blur positional roles.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:38 pm to Friend of OBUDan
quote:
i think formations are useful, but i think we could use more names for the roles players play in to describe what they do. for instance, how Robben plays RW is very different from Theo which is very different from Jesus Navas. even though players, especially attackers, are more apt to float around these days, it's pretty rare that they wholly abandon those positional zones after the start of the match. they will stray into different spaces throughout the course of the match, but the zone they start in his generally the zone they'll return to when the run of play peters out a bit.
Positions still exist, I just don't think rigid interpretations of formations do. The tactical advantage you gain from playing an inverted winger like Robben against a usually left-footed player who is uncomfortable defending with his weak foot is something that can be exploited specifically. The fact that you can have a player like Robben play right wing, a player like Navas play right wing, and a player like Thomas Mueller play right wing shows that the employment of a wide player is as nuanced as the spacing that player uses to make "plays" happen. All it implies is that you need a player to play wide. How that player plays directly affects the spacing of other plays, and affects how the team as a whole plays. I think that last point is an overlooked aspect when we talk about formations and players in them.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:40 pm to cwil177
quote:
How often do you simultaneously get swole and think about soccer tactics?
Haha, usually when I'm doing cardio, I'll use a machine and read my kindle. When I'm lifting I only think about getting over with it.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 12:41 pm to cwil177
Formations are more for defending. I always tell my players that when we defend, we want to be compact and predictable. The formation we are playing should dictate to the CB where his RB is, or how many CM's he has to boss around.
When we attack, we want width, creativity and chaos, so formations - rigid as they are - go right out the window. We just need players to fill certain roles, as you say. Who is staying behind to play holding mid? Who is making the near post run, who is providing width, etc.
When we attack, we want width, creativity and chaos, so formations - rigid as they are - go right out the window. We just need players to fill certain roles, as you say. Who is staying behind to play holding mid? Who is making the near post run, who is providing width, etc.
This post was edited on 8/1/14 at 12:42 pm
Posted on 8/1/14 at 1:19 pm to Tiger Phil
quote:
Formations are more for defending. I always tell my players that when we defend, we want to be compact and predictable. The formation we are playing should dictate to the CB where his RB is, or how many CM's he has to boss around.
When we attack, we want width, creativity and chaos, so formations - rigid as they are - go right out the window. We just need players to fill certain roles, as you say. Who is staying behind to play holding mid? Who is making the near post run, who is providing width, etc.
If not for the LSU tag, I'd think you are Auburn's club coach. He's basically the same way. A formation just tends to be the base idea of how you should be spaced and what your defensive responsibilities are.
The other thing that is making formations so much less rigid is the versatility of players. Fullbacks now can make the same runs and crosses as wingers and wide midfielders. Midfielders have the runs and finishes of strikers. Players are interchanging constantly.
Basically, to round it out, (and I know it's not a new statement in this thread) formations exist as a guideline to mostly appease fans and give a general idea of who is going to operate in what role.
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:19 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
I think with the explosion of tactical writing since Zonal Marking, we tend to think of formations in too narrow a manner
quote:
My point here is that I think the way we talk about formations should attempt to resemble what actually happens on the field rather than what the formation tells us they should do. Or we should think and talk about space more than we do, since a formation implies a static situation and things on the field are never static.
I think that people too frequently treat tactical formations as the end all-be all. It's not. It's shorthand, so it doesn't need to be thrown out completely.
Just as long as someone doesn't try to use tactical formations to attempt to predict how a game will go. This is how I feel then:
This post was edited on 8/1/14 at 2:21 pm
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:25 pm to joey barton
I think they are a good starting point and can be very fluid, depending on whether you are attacking or defending...
Though there are some pretty fundamental differences in playing a back 3, as opposed to a back 4
Though there are some pretty fundamental differences in playing a back 3, as opposed to a back 4
Posted on 8/1/14 at 2:45 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
For me there are four phases of the game. 1)Defensive set 2)Transition from defending to attacking 3)Attacking set 4)Transition from attacking to defending
I think formations matter most when teams are in a defensive mindset. When on the attack or transitioning into attack, things can be more fluid. But when a team loses the ball and players are transitioning back to defense, a player's thought generally is to get back behind the ball and into their natural (starting) position. If they can't get back to their position, another may cover and then they fall into that person's position. And once a player gets back behind the ball, they tend to hold their natural position, closing the space or player in their area. I think the idea of a formation is most useful when thinking from a defensive standpoint.
ETA: I see now that you sort of mentioned this in your OP.
quote:
Now there are situations when talking about a formation is useful, and for me that comes in terms of defensive positioning, specifically the positioning of the CBs with the CM's.
This post was edited on 8/1/14 at 4:25 pm
Posted on 8/1/14 at 3:14 pm to joey barton
quote:This is pretty much how I feel. I like getting into the tactics but when you're breaking down a whole game or half or whatever, it's hard to get into who occupied what space or what role and did what when the team had the ball or when they defended. It's easier to use a formation to label everything, but I love that it's a lot more fluid than that. Makes it one of the most interesting sports to look at from a tactical standpoint
I think that people too frequently treat tactical formations as the end all-be all. It's not. It's shorthand
Posted on 8/1/14 at 11:20 pm to crazy4lsu
I've had a few beers and I didn't really read closely but I think I agree with you
Popular
Back to top
Follow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News