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Why the US military isn’t ready for a civil war
Posted on 1/5/22 at 9:43 pm
Posted on 1/5/22 at 9:43 pm
An enormous amount of proggie Pearl clutching in the first half, but some good gems in the second
TLDR: the American military would win every battle it fought against an insurrection, and would still lose because insurrections are about politics, and military action makes them worse.
All true, much to the consternation of some of the chest thumping tacticool rangers.
But wait, before you ragepost at me:
TLDR: the American military would win every battle it fought against an insurrection, and would still lose because insurrections are about politics, and military action makes them worse.
quote:
He doesn’t have any difficulty picturing a contemporary U.S. equivalent to civil wars elsewhere. “It would not be like the first Civil War, with armies maneuvering on the battlefield,” he said. “I think it would very much be a free-for-all, neighbor on neighbor, based on beliefs and skin colors and religion. And it would be horrific.”
For the U.S. government, an outbreak of widespread political violence inside the country’s borders would necessarily become a military operation. U.S. militias are significant enough that the FBI or the Department of Homeland Security would simply be insufficient to deal with them. Only the U.S. military could be capable of dealing with insurgent forces.
And from a tactical point of view, any engagement between U.S. forces and a militia (or any insurgent force of any kind for that matter) would be entirely one-sided. Despite the preparations of right-wing militias, and despite the sheer number of weapons available in the United States, the U.S. Marines are still the U.S. Marines. No militia or organized group of militias could compete with them in battle.
All true, much to the consternation of some of the chest thumping tacticool rangers.
But wait, before you ragepost at me:
quote:
For half the country, the military engagement against insurrectionists or terrorists will be necessary to preserve democracy and the rule of law.
For the other half, it will be the desecration of individual liberty. The beginning of any action, of any sort, by a U.S. military force against U.S. citizens would create an automatic sense of illegitimacy. The already incipient legitimacy crisis would be exacerbated.
quote:
For decades, the U.S. military has been defined by its ineffectiveness against insurgencies in foreign countries. Why would it do any better at home?
The central problem is that it is impossible to build legitimacy as an occupier; the process of holding, even with the best of intentions, is humiliating and disruptive.
quote:
The tactical considerations of battles between the U.S. military and any domestic militia forces would be completely irrelevant. No one with any tactical expertise can imagine anything other than a one-sided engagement. Professional military forces are professional.
By the same token, no one with any political expertise in counterinsurgency could imagine that any of those victories would matter.
quote:
Every time the Marines demolished another outpost of domestic resistance, it would only exacerbate the underlying crises. “You will occasionally hear people say, ‘I’m not worried about an insurrection because the Army’s got all the tanks and the Air Force has bombers,’” Bolger said. “Look, if that’s what you’re reduced to, just going in and killing people, you’re not solving the insurrection. In fact, you’re spreading it. You’re guaranteeing more of it.” You cannot punish people out of hating you. The military is an instrument of punishment. Its very function makes it useless.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 9:48 pm to cokebottleag
This is silly. Obviously the US Military isn’t going to engage in a full scale war. If an attack happens to the US Govt, they would respond to that specific attack. They aren’t going to go around bombing right wing militia groups.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 9:49 pm to cokebottleag
The reason for success here in America would be because they would kill innocents as well as the militia members without thinking about it. In other wars we have fought, we always tried to win the hearts and minds of the local people.
They would not care about hearts and minds here.
They would not care about hearts and minds here.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 9:57 pm to cokebottleag
I suspect that a lot of former military special forces have lists of who would be removed if things get hot.
They are not watching what is going on with their buddies in DC Gitmo and the raids across the nation and just rolling over. I am sure they are taking notes.
They are not watching what is going on with their buddies in DC Gitmo and the raids across the nation and just rolling over. I am sure they are taking notes.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:03 pm to cokebottleag
Where are you getting that from?
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:10 pm to cokebottleag
Their underlying assumption of the military remaining at anywhere near full strength is alway off base.
If there was a true civil war probably about 30% of the overall military and 80% of tier 1 operators will join the insurrection.
If there was a true civil war probably about 30% of the overall military and 80% of tier 1 operators will join the insurrection.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:10 pm to OMLandshark
Where am I getting what from? The quoted article is from foreign policy.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:12 pm to cokebottleag
I’m no genius.
But no one knows anything about:
Who fights who
Who teams up with who.
Who backstabs and double crosses.
And ultimately what happens.
But no one knows anything about:
Who fights who
Who teams up with who.
Who backstabs and double crosses.
And ultimately what happens.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:15 pm to Mid Iowa Tiger
quote:
If there was a true civil war probably about 30% of the overall military and 80% of tier 1 operators will join the insurrection.
This. It's been wargamed out by the military and those are pretty bang on for their estimates to say nothing of the retired folks lurking about this country.
And forget the political side of things. Tanks and planes need gas and supplies and they don't do you a lick of good sitting idle. Coincidentally, those operators do their best work when shite is sitting idle. Our military games show our own military being at a huge disadvantage in a true civil war against the populous.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:15 pm to Mid Iowa Tiger
quote:
If there was a true civil war probably about 30% of the overall military and 80% of tier 1 operators will join the insurrection.
Yep
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:27 pm to 1BIGTigerFan
Civil war in this country will look much more like mafia hits and guerilla warfare than militias vs army.
In fact it may be months into it before it becomes apparent what is happening.
In fact it may be months into it before it becomes apparent what is happening.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:28 pm to Meauxjeaux
If there was ever a real civil war, the families of green tabbers would be targeted.
I wonder how long a Division Commander is willing to send his Brigades into hostile areas when his children get abducted at their schools.
How many Sergeants Major will have their houses burned down?
What happens when Platoon and Squad Leaders' families are in danger?
I wonder how long a Division Commander is willing to send his Brigades into hostile areas when his children get abducted at their schools.
How many Sergeants Major will have their houses burned down?
What happens when Platoon and Squad Leaders' families are in danger?
This post was edited on 1/5/22 at 10:31 pm
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:34 pm to Meauxjeaux
quote:
In fact it may be months into it before it becomes apparent what is happening.
I agree
Posted on 1/5/22 at 10:57 pm to cokebottleag
quote:
“I think it would very much be a free-for-all, neighbor on neighbor, based on beliefs and skin colors and religion.
I agree with this statement... It won;t be succeeded states like the first one... I think that a lot of a civil war would be based on skin color, with large cities isolated from Suburbs and Rural Areas. I say skin color because I do believe that will play a major part of this. The White Man is being pushed as the problem in this country. Also when you go along political lines like say Republicans vs. Democrats in a Civil war... With the MAjority of BLack People voting Democrat... It would be almost safe to say that the majority of Black people would be Democrats. Where as you could not make that same assumption with White people. Asians I believe would be looked at as Republican. So basically in a political war, black people would be associated with a specific political party immediately, even if inaccurately.
as to the Military having to take on the US population... What?
Remember in the First Civil War the Military was divided. Both Robert E Lee and Stonewall Jackson were members of the US Army. Both attended West Point along with many many other Confederate Generals. The Military would be split just as the entire nation will. TO think that the Military would not be divided is asinine. That's why it's called a civil war.
This post was edited on 1/5/22 at 11:02 pm
Posted on 1/5/22 at 11:25 pm to cokebottleag
It's almost like Vietnam never happened in the annals of American military history ...
The folks suggesting that 30% of US forces wouldn't fire on US civilians is way too low ... in Vietnam, the guerrillas couldn't kill a soldier's entire family in retaliation cause they weren't on the same mainland.
Another US Civil War would be horrific and no one should want it to ever come to pass ...
The folks suggesting that 30% of US forces wouldn't fire on US civilians is way too low ... in Vietnam, the guerrillas couldn't kill a soldier's entire family in retaliation cause they weren't on the same mainland.
Another US Civil War would be horrific and no one should want it to ever come to pass ...
Posted on 1/5/22 at 11:27 pm to Mickey Goldmill
quote:
If an attack happens to the US Govt, they would be respond to that specific attack. They aren’t going to go around bombing right wing militia groups.
You missed the most important point. Especially in this day and age, insurgencies are political a long, long time before they’re tactical. You have pearl-clutchers calling the Jan 6 protest/riot an “attack on democracy”. Respond with the military to a “specific attack” that much of the country views as legitimate “unrest” and you’re creating more problems than you’re solving.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 11:46 pm to Flats
Oh.. One more thing that I forgot to add...
in 1861-1865... Those people didn't just run to Walmart to get a dozen eggs, a loaf of bread and a pound of hamburger.
Families back then lived on their own, raised their own crops, animals and a lot of trading was done locally... Not having large corps bring in food with trucks on interstates etc. And especially goods being brought in from China.
So the bottom line is any Civil war would immediate disrupt our supply chains in ways unimaginable... It didn't effect those in 1865 like it would now.
Image large cities of people with no food, gas or Cell phones... Or maybe even electricity.. Only those that hoarded up now could survive a few years...
Horrific... Yes.. It would be.
in 1861-1865... Those people didn't just run to Walmart to get a dozen eggs, a loaf of bread and a pound of hamburger.
Families back then lived on their own, raised their own crops, animals and a lot of trading was done locally... Not having large corps bring in food with trucks on interstates etc. And especially goods being brought in from China.
So the bottom line is any Civil war would immediate disrupt our supply chains in ways unimaginable... It didn't effect those in 1865 like it would now.
Image large cities of people with no food, gas or Cell phones... Or maybe even electricity.. Only those that hoarded up now could survive a few years...
Horrific... Yes.. It would be.
This post was edited on 1/5/22 at 11:48 pm
Posted on 1/5/22 at 11:49 pm to cokebottleag
I’d be curious to see how long the insurgency lasts once the NSA flips the switch and turns off the internet and cell phone towers.
You immediately minimize it into pockets of resistance able to be stomped out one by one. Assuming your military doesn’t defect to the insurgency as some suggested above.
You immediately minimize it into pockets of resistance able to be stomped out one by one. Assuming your military doesn’t defect to the insurgency as some suggested above.
This post was edited on 1/6/22 at 12:02 am
Posted on 1/5/22 at 11:52 pm to Flats
quote:
You missed the most important point. Especially in this day and age, insurgencies are political a long, long time before they’re tactical. You have pearl-clutchers calling the Jan 6 protest/riot an “attack on democracy”. Respond with the military to a “specific attack” that much of the country views as legitimate “unrest” and you’re creating more problems than you’re solving.
Oh I agree, if it were to happen that way.
Posted on 1/5/22 at 11:57 pm to boosiebadazz
quote:
I’d be curious to see how long the insurgency lasts once the NSA flips the switch and turns off the internet and cell phone towers.
I would imagine that those internet and phone towers would be brought down by force, that way neither side would have access to the technology or advantage.
BUt yes... I can see them being turned off by the government so that the people would be unable to communicate while they would... But again if the military was split, both sides would have military radio equipment.
Interesting points to ponder for sure...
Actually... Shutting off internet and cell phone is what the left is doing now... Trump has no social media while
Pelosi, Shumer, Biden and their followers do.
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