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re: What's your take on prescription drug laws?
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:01 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:01 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:You're missing the point. Even assuming, arguendo, that the fact that a regulation does not dissuade a behavior 100% is sufficient to discard it, this is also part of the reason we give doctors the power to separate out first-line, second-line and last-resort antibiotics. Joe Schmoe gets amoxicillin or azithromycin because if he doesn't finish his course, well, he'll have learned a valuable lesson and there are still plenty of backups. If all antibiotics are available over the counter and every rich kid gets linezolid for their tummyache, we are fricked.
People do this now.
This post was edited on 12/24/14 at 4:02 pm
1
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:06 pm to Iosh
quote:
If all antibiotics are available over the counter and every rich kid gets linezolid for their tummyache, we are fricked.
Should the worst case scenario, the unlikely scenario be the basis for policy?
I see no reason why people would abuse antibiotics an a large scale. Don't believe it would happen, but scare tactics influence our policy now I guess there's no reason to change that. We fear everything else, I guess antibiotic abuse should be on the list as well.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:08 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
My guess is the overwhelming majority of people would avoid antibiotics without consulting a doctor even if they were readily available. I see no reason why they would be abused.
I think your guess is wrong.
quote:
Where are they getting them??
By playing doctor roulette. It's a fun game for a certain class of people. Start calling doctors and see who will prescribe what you want. They do the same thing with ADHD Meds for their kids, anti depressants, painkillers and anti psychotics.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:09 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Should the worst case scenario, the unlikely scenario be the basis for policy?
There is already a tremendous and developing problem with antibiotic resistance. That's not an unlikely scenario. It's reality.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:16 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
You don't get it from many ads. It's up to the consumer to educate themselves IMO. I'm 100% for allowing people to use whatever drugs they want to use
Yup
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:19 pm to the808bass
quote:
By playing doctor roulette. It's a fun game for a certain class of people. Start calling doctors and see who will prescribe what you want. They do the same thing with ADHD Meds for their kids, anti depressants, painkillers and anti psychotics.
With antibiotics? The only links I can find to antibiotic abuse refer to the over prescription of them from MD's. LINK
We'll just have to disagree. I don't see rampant abuse of antibiotics even if they were available OTC. The major "abuse" of antibiotics appears to be agricultural. LINK
quote:
According to Dr. Arjun Srinivasan, associate director of the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), as much as half of all antibiotics used in clinics and hospitals "are either unneeded or patients are getting the wrong drugs to treat their infections."1
There's more to the story than this, however, as antibiotic overuse occurs not just in medicine, but also in food production. In fact, agricultural usage accounts for about 80 percent of all antibiotic use in the US,2 so it's a MAJOR source of human antibiotic consumption.
Nearly 25 million pounds of antibiotics are administered to livestock in the US every year for purposes other than treating disease, such as making the animals grow bigger faster.
I just don't see the dark future of humans spending money on antibiotics if they aren't necessary. A few, maybe but nothing out of this world and I don't see anything where humans are spending out of pocket to go to various doctors to abuse antibiotics.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:22 pm to TerryDawg03
Making antibiotics over the counter would save our economy billions in health care cost.
You should not have to pay a doctor to write a prescription for something like penicillin. I don't believe allowing antibiotics over the counter will do anymore to create super bugs than what we do now.
You can buy them at Wal Mart in Mexico. I get me some every time I go.
You should not have to pay a doctor to write a prescription for something like penicillin. I don't believe allowing antibiotics over the counter will do anymore to create super bugs than what we do now.
You can buy them at Wal Mart in Mexico. I get me some every time I go.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:23 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Doctors are part of the problem with antibiotic overuse. But it's driven by the consumer side.
Again. If a person wants to go buy 7 day supply of Levaquin every time they get the sniffles, that's fine with me. But they'll want to sue their doctor and the drug company when that doesn't work out well.
Again. If a person wants to go buy 7 day supply of Levaquin every time they get the sniffles, that's fine with me. But they'll want to sue their doctor and the drug company when that doesn't work out well.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:51 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:In this case? Yes. Because the costs and benefits of a free market in antibiotics are incredibly assymetrical.
Should the worst case scenario, the unlikely scenario be the basis for policy?
The benefits are that some very small amount of people will be able to save the copay or cost of an appointment ($20-200 depending on insurance status). I say "very small amount" because this benefit applies only to people who correctly self-diagnose and thus would be better off in Ancapistan where they wouldn't have had to see a doctor at all.
The costs are both a greater waste of money by the vast majority of incorrect self-diagnosers who grab antibiotics for their flu and/or food poisoning and/or hypochondria, and accelerated resistance to the broad-spectrum stuff like macrolides (which will have the widest market) and last-line treatments previously reserved for resistant cases.
Even if this just raises the rate of superbug proliferation a small amount, by let's say 1% (an absurdly small estimate for such a drastic change in policy), it's still an enormous cost because drug-resistant infections kill hundreds of thousands every year.
Plus we can achieve the benefits of the policy (saving the doctor copays) in other ways by making medicine cheaper, whether you're a capitalist and favor loose licensing laws and more nurse practitioners or whether you're a socialist and want single-payer.
This post was edited on 12/24/14 at 4:59 pm
Posted on 12/24/14 at 4:54 pm to TerryDawg03
the fact some people here are arguing for otc antibiotics makes me 
we're already having resistance problems with macrolides and fluoroquinolones, some of y'all need to get a clue and stick to discussing what you actually know besides "muh liberties"
this is one of the few things you should have to pay a doc to get a script for. not tramadol or viagra or birth control.
we're already having resistance problems with macrolides and fluoroquinolones, some of y'all need to get a clue and stick to discussing what you actually know besides "muh liberties"
quote:
You should not have to pay a doctor to write a prescription for something like penicillin
this is one of the few things you should have to pay a doc to get a script for. not tramadol or viagra or birth control.
This post was edited on 12/24/14 at 4:56 pm
Posted on 12/24/14 at 5:40 pm to Tiguar
quote:
quote:
You should not have to pay a doctor to write a prescription for something like penicillin
this is one of the few things you should have to pay a doc to get a script for. not tramadol or viagra or birth control.
Why? You guys just ignore the fact that antibiotics are over the counter in most of the world. If tomorrow 300 million Americans can buy them over the counter the proliferation of super bugs is not going to significantly accelerate. (the cost benefit analysis in the previous post is bunk too--letting Americans have the choice to save a costly visit to a doc is not in of itself going to cost the economy.)
Are there super bugs mutating resistance to antibiotics--yes but penicillin--the oldest antibiotic I suppose is still very effective against a host of bugs. How does your logic explain that???
If I get a superbug the doc can see me and recommend another drug.
There is nothing right about have to pay a doctor $50 or $100 to write a prescription for a $10 generic antibiotic. I guarantee you there are very few docs out there that refuse to write a script for an antibiotic because they are afraid of superbugs. There are lots out there writing scripts for high dollar new antibiotics for ailments that a cheap generic would work just as well.
True story--I had a bad sinus conditions. Went to my doc. He wrote a script and I quizzed him about what it would cost. He said he thought around $90. I ask was there a cheaper drug and he said yes and wrote some old antibiotic that cost $12. Happens everyday. The doc writes the drug the last pharmacy salesman who bought him lunch or paid his way to "speak" at a resort meeting sells.
Certainly pharmacist should be able to recommend antibiotics based on described conditions.
This post was edited on 12/24/14 at 10:12 pm
Posted on 12/24/14 at 5:47 pm to Doldil
quote:
I understand that there are a lot of people that abuse this shite, but they'll still find it. The people who legitimately need help are, as usual, the ones suffering the most due to the changes. I'm obviously quite a bit biased though, given the circumstances.
Less serious but look at the war on meth. Meth heads have no trouble getting their fix but if you have a bad URI you're screwed.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 5:50 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
The doc writes the drug the last pharmacy salesman who bought him lunch or paid his way to "speak" at a resort meeting sells.
Thanks for demonstrating you don't know how the system works.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 6:00 pm to the808bass
quote:
quote:
The doc writes the drug the last pharmacy salesman who bought him lunch or paid his way to "speak" at a resort meeting sells.
Thanks for demonstrating you don't know how the system works.
Educate me oh brilliant one. Those big pharmacies expense accounts and lavish resort trips for docs are not just out of kindness.
If a billion Chinese and a billion Indians and all of South Americans, Africans and a significant portion of Europeans can buy simple antibiotics over the counter then by gawd Americans should be free to do the same.
This post was edited on 12/24/14 at 6:03 pm
Posted on 12/24/14 at 6:05 pm to I B Freeman
I've said it twice ITT. I will say it a third time. If consumers are ok with waiving their right to sue drug manufacturers for the problems arising from their own misuse of drugs or misdiagnosing their own condition, I'm fine with them picking anything off the shelf they want.
As for pharma marketing, doctors getting a $12 lunch from a rep isn't any real incentive for them to use a product. And they don't get to go to the Bahamas for an education class on the drug any more. That ended over a decade ago.
As for pharma marketing, doctors getting a $12 lunch from a rep isn't any real incentive for them to use a product. And they don't get to go to the Bahamas for an education class on the drug any more. That ended over a decade ago.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 6:06 pm to I B Freeman
quote:And how is that working out for them? Not great! LINK
Why? You guys just ignore the fact that antibiotics are over the counter in most of the world.
quote:
Up to 95% of adults in India and Pakistan carry bacteria that are resistant to ß-lactam antibiotics — which include carbapenems, considered to be antibiotics of ‘last resort’ — according to research by Timothy Walsh, a medical microbiologist at Cardiff University, UK, that is due to be published in The Lancet. By comparison, only 10% of adults in the Queens area of New York carry such bacteria.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 6:15 pm to the808bass
quote:
If consumers are ok with waiving their right to sue drug manufacturers for the problems arising from their own misuse of drugs or misdiagnosing their own condition, I'm fine with them picking anything off the shelf they wa
What standing does a consumer have to sue a drug company from misuse of a drug now??? You think somebody is going to be successful in a lawsuit against Pfizer because they took penicillin and it didn't cure their cancer??? Crazy. You are just too scared of life to be dictating to the rest of us.
BS on the trips ending. Read this crap. LINK
You don't think those $12 lunches are just for fun do you?? Somewhere along the line the salesman wants to "educate" that doc on his new drug that may improve treatment of sinus infections in 5% of his patients but cost 10 times more than amoxicillin. Doc doesn't care what it costs the patient. Most don't even know what it cost.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 6:20 pm to Iosh
quote:
quote:
Why? You guys just ignore the fact that antibiotics are over the counter in most of the world.
And how is that working out for them? Not great! LINK
quote:
Up to 95% of adults in India and Pakistan carry bacteria that are resistant to ß-lactam antibiotics — which include carbapenems, considered to be antibiotics of ‘last resort’ — according to research by Timothy Walsh, a medical microbiologist at Cardiff University, UK, that is due to be published in The Lancet. By comparison, only 10% of adults in the Queens area of New York carry such bacteria.
So what???
In the name of stopping superbugs are you going to be for outlawing antibiotics??
Docs are writing scripts on demand for antibiotics.
You got any data on the people in the US that are not getting antibiotics in time and dying from pneumonia or some infection because they don't have the money to pay some doc to get a prescription for a life saving $12 antibiotic?? Chew on that a while.
You guys are cruel SOBs that think you know what is best for people and would have the government imprison people for selling people the drugs they need and want because they have not paid a doc for a prescription.
This post was edited on 12/24/14 at 6:21 pm
Posted on 12/24/14 at 6:21 pm to I B Freeman
quote:
Doc doesn't care what it costs the patient. Most don't even know what it cost.
Again. You're ignoring huge chunks of the system because you're (likely willfully) ignorant.
An expensive drug has to be paid for by either the consumer or, more likely, an insurance company or PBM. Insurance companies/PBMs don't pay for drugs which don't demonstrate efficacy and they don't pay for more expensive drugs just to make pharma companies happy.
Secondly, pharmacies are heavily incentivized by both the generic companies and, if they are a chain, their corporate structure, to switch patients from a branded drug to a generic. They do this very well. And it's not just because they have the best interests of the patient at heart (password is: rebate dollars).
Your link is 1) a pay site and 2) likely doesn't say anything you think it does.
Posted on 12/24/14 at 6:22 pm to the808bass
quote:
Again. You're ignoring huge chunks of the system because you're (likely willfully) ignorant.
You are obviously the ignorant one. Did you see in the link I posted above the $42 million pharmacy companies reported they spent on docs in Louisiana alone?? (They call a lot of it "research" now. My own doc is in that list. I suspect his "research" amounts to writing a bunch of scripts for the company and then tell them if he thinks his patients did ok.)
Here it is for your education you cruel elitists.
LINK
This post was edited on 12/24/14 at 6:26 pm
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