re: 'Universal' health care will NEVER work

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every single first world country, besides the USA, has UHC and youre suggesting, in every single first world country, their systems are failures?

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And every single one of those countries has sub par care when compared to the US.

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Actually the data out there shows that we spend more of our GDP (and more per capita than 2 countries with UHC) but have worse outcomes

below is the more in depth statistics and source




"Public spending on health care amounted to $4,197 per capita in the U.S. in 2013, more than in any other country except Norway ($4,981) and the Netherlands ($4,495), despite the fact that the U.S. was the only country studied that did not have a universal health care system. In the U.S., about 34 percent of residents were covered by public programs in 2013, including Medicare and Medicaid.7 By comparison, every resident in the United Kingdom is covered by the public system and spending was $2,802 per capita. "

"On several measures of population health, Americans had worse outcomes than their international peers. The U.S. had the lowest life expectancy at birth of the countries studied, at 78.8 years in 2013, compared with the OECD median of 81.2 years. "

"The Institute of Medicine found that poorer health in the U.S. was not simply the result of economic, social, or racial and ethnic disadvantages—even well-off, nonsmoking, nonobese Americans appear in worse health than their counterparts abroad."

"How can we explain the higher U.S. spending? In line with previous studies,19 the results of this analysis suggest that the excess is likely driven by greater utilization of medical technology and higher prices, rather than use of routine services, such as more frequent visits to physicians and hospitals."

"Health care spending in the U.S. far exceeds that in other countries, despite a global slowdown in spending growth in recent years. At 17.1 percent of GDP, the U.S. devotes at least 50 percent more of its economy to health care than do other countries. Even public spending on health care, on a per capita basis, is higher in the U.S. than in most other countries with universal public coverage."

*all emphasis mine



source: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2015/oct/us-health-care-from-a-global-perspective

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Because surgeries that are life or death are not delayed? You may have to wait 6 months for a knee replacement but if yiu need an emergency surgery it is handled immediately, no different than the de facto socialized emergency room care we have

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So the poor are already getting those surgeries? Why do we need the change?

Waiting six months for a knee replacement, in line behind people who don't work, seems pretty awful to me. Does it not seem that way to you?

The perverse incentives are pretty hard to miss.

TaxingAuthority has already destroyed that argument in this thread. Go back and read. We spend pretty much the same per person until age 60. That's when we start paying more.

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It is. Your bad health is not my fricking problem.

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Exactly

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This argument works until it's your health that goes bad.

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I really don't think he wants his bad health to be your problem though. That's the point.

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This argument works until it's your health that goes bad.

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No, still works because I have insurance.

Because the emergency room model is incredibly expensive and inefficient? A bad deal for everyone wealthy or otherwise. Bad for business, too.

I personally don't have a problem waiting six months for non essential surgery, or have the option of going the private route on my own to have the surgery expedited, if that system produces better or the same results for less public and private healthcare spending. I'm fiscally conservative like that though.

If you want to argue the US government specifically cannot effectively run UHC that's a line of argument I am open to. Saying that it doesn't work elsewhere though is fantasy.

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Because the emergency room model is incredibly expensive and inefficient?

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Which is why EMTALA needs to be gotten rid of.

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Public spending is much higher when you pay ER prices for office visit issues.

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Medicaid users are the worst offenders. When I worked in a pharmacy I can't tell you how many times somebody with medicaid came in with a RX for something they could have bought OTC for 7 dollars but decided to go to the ER on the tax payer dime and fill the RX version for 10x the cost to the taxpayer. So instead of spending $7 of their own money they spend 1k worth of tax payer money.