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Started By
Message
re: Uber and Lyft Are The Arguments to turn (Social) Liberals to Libertarians
Posted on 8/2/14 at 10:56 am to RogerTheShrubber
Posted on 8/2/14 at 10:56 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
Wonder if he wants to limit the number of visitors his neighbor can have? Or house sitters? They may not share the same sensibilities, after all.
he's probably one of the assholes who marks off parking in his neighborhood
0
Posted on 8/2/14 at 10:57 am to OleWar
quote:
Not you, but the community. This is how society works.
ok
this thread is about influencing the community to shed out-dated and liberty-infringing belief systems such as your's
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:01 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
but there is also always emigration. if you can't survive in the modern economy, kindly gtfo
Well the majority of the world wouldn't be able to live in the technological society. We would have to change our education system, among other things. The fact that massive wealth will be created through automation means that those that "produce" will continually become infinitely smaller. Obviously other industries will develop from these new technologies, and we are at least 2 generations away from seeing the world you describe. But the negative income tax, at least in theory, is an easier way of dealing with bureaucracy than the displacement of peoples.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:04 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
We would have to change our education system, among other things.
why?
we're doing a good job of supplying tech to the world with our current one. plus with a less decentralized federal government, we'll have a more free market educational system and that will adapt much more quickly
it will just "leave out" the people who can't participate in the modern economy anyway
quote:
But the negative income tax, at least in theory, is an easier way of dealing with bureaucracy than the displacement of peoples.
how? it doesn't require a bureaucracy for people to leave. are you implying that, for a current example, honduras has a complex bureaucratic regime for emigration currently? of course not. they probably spend $0 on it
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:11 am to SlowFlowPro
I'm glad the discussion about rent seekers and the stresses of technology on the modern economy came together in this thread.
I beleive the name of the game will be hyper specialized goods and services and that will require much easier entry and exit into small business and using the sharing economy for other sources of income. The goal should be the democratization of business and coporations.
Instead the old thinking governments do all they can to protect the big established players who'd rather not have more competition. So much for the free market right? Small Business and the agility to attack niche markets will be the backbone of the 21st century economy whereas manufacturing drove the 20th century. It's one place where the government certainly should and won't get out of the way.
I beleive the name of the game will be hyper specialized goods and services and that will require much easier entry and exit into small business and using the sharing economy for other sources of income. The goal should be the democratization of business and coporations.
Instead the old thinking governments do all they can to protect the big established players who'd rather not have more competition. So much for the free market right? Small Business and the agility to attack niche markets will be the backbone of the 21st century economy whereas manufacturing drove the 20th century. It's one place where the government certainly should and won't get out of the way.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:13 am to OleWar
quote:
Not you, but the community. This is how society works.
That's how HOAs work. Using the government to prevent a property owner from using his property as he sees fit is a pretty shitty thing.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:24 am to Antonio Moss
I think a municipal charter is a bit like a home owner association, perhaps not as strict and combined with commercial interests as well. What plane of existence do you anarcho-libertarians live, dorm room, parent's basement, under ground missile silo?
I'm willing to debate what "libertarian" policy ideas would work, I'm not generally opposed to uber or whatever it is in New Orleans but I don't have much of an interest and rarely take cabs. I do have an interest in zoning of property, and I would prefer the homes around me don't become hostels. But if the citizens of New Orleans or my neighborhood decide otherwise, then so be it.
I'm willing to debate what "libertarian" policy ideas would work, I'm not generally opposed to uber or whatever it is in New Orleans but I don't have much of an interest and rarely take cabs. I do have an interest in zoning of property, and I would prefer the homes around me don't become hostels. But if the citizens of New Orleans or my neighborhood decide otherwise, then so be it.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:25 am to OleWar
quote:
What plane of existence do you anarcho-libertarians live, dorm room, parent's basement, under ground missile silo?
ad hom attacks...COMMENCE!
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:26 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
we're doing a good job of supplying tech to the world with our current one. plus with a less decentralized federal government, we'll have a more free market educational system and that will adapt much more quickly
You think we'll have a less decentralized government? I think with technological innovation one of the great dangers is the misuse by governments to increase oversight. Currently it is hard to imagine this federal government actually giving up oversight. Giving up power is not something governments tend to do.
Not only that, if the goal our of education system were to thrive in the technological state, then you'd have to introduce programming at much younger ages, you'd have to introduce programs to fix whatever breaks down, etc. That implementation process isn't easy, by any means.
With regard to people leaving, they would only leave if they had a place to go where they could improve their condition. That is by no means a guarantee. In the world you are envisioning, those that "produce" would be limited to a much smaller number of people. Also in this automated world, the wealth would be concentrated into fewer and fewer hands. I don't see how that could be sustainable, nor how "just leave" is an accurate solution. Of course I don't think the transition to a technological society will be uniform across the globe, but people won't migrate unless they have a reason to.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:35 am to crazy4lsu
quote:
You think we'll have a less decentralized government?
yes
quote:
Currently it is hard to imagine this federal government actually giving up oversight
well, the example of this thread is localized, but apply it on a bigger scale and it will still apply (just will take time)
technology always wins in the end, because the population will support new tech that enhances their lives with much more vigor than they will their political parties. that's kind of what i'm implying with this thread (in terms of influencing one group with a tactile example to expand their political ideology in general. these liberals in nola and nyc who claim to support big gov are already displaying their hypocrisy with their support of "illegal" apps like uber/lyft)
quote:
Not only that, if the goal our of education system were to thrive in the technological state, then you'd have to introduce programming at much younger ages, you'd have to introduce programs to fix whatever breaks down, etc. That implementation process isn't easy, by any means.
i don't necessarily agree, but it's much more likely to be adapted in a free market than via government. government is slow to react, due to the very nature of what government is. this is actually see by the OP of this thread
quote:
With regard to people leaving, they would only leave if they had a place to go where they could improve their condition.
well i dream of a world with extremely limited social welfare, public schooling, etc. we will only develop our technology with these efficiencies in place. it won't be a pretty place for those people
quote:
In the world you are envisioning, those that "produce" would be limited to a much smaller number of people.
yup
quote:
. Also in this automated world, the wealth would be concentrated into fewer and fewer hands. I don't see how that could be sustainable
wealth flows due to the desires of the populace. also, the wealthy can only increase wealth by offering competing products (at competing prices) while leaving enough money flowing to add to this wealth. the feared oligarchy, like what we see in contemporary russia, is only formed through the power of the state. even then, though, at some point they will reach a satiation point where without more freedom for the consumer, they cannot increase their wealth further.
quote:
but people won't migrate unless they have a reason to.
the main reason poor people stay in the US is b/c we allow them to via social welfare programs paid by others
ignore the government control-innovation issues and just think about how much things would improve if we didn't have to support all of those people and that money could be diverted back to market choices, R&D, and innovation.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:49 am to OleWar
[quote]I think a municipal charter is a bit like a home owner association[/quote
No, it isn't.
No, it isn't.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:56 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
yes
That's a nice dream, but better technology can also increase the oversight for governments. Obviously this is a dream world and not reality.
quote:
technology always wins in the end, because the population will support new tech that enhances their lives with much more vigor than they will their political parties. that's kind of what i'm implying with this thread (in terms of influencing one group with a tactile example to expand their political ideology in general. these liberals in nola and nyc who claim to support big gov are already displaying their hypocrisy with their support of "illegal" apps like uber/lyft)
I agree with this, but this elongates the timescale in my mind. There will be other smaller countries that will adapt quicker. I think the victory for fiber in Chattanooga is a good example though.
quote:
well i dream of a world with extremely limited social welfare, public schooling, etc. we will only develop our technology with these efficiencies in place. it won't be a pretty place for those people
Obviously we have different dream worlds. I see the massive wealth created as an opportunity to live human lives fuller.
quote:
wealth flows due to the desires of the populace. also, the wealthy can only increase wealth by offering competing products (at competing prices) while leaving enough money flowing to add to this wealth. the feared oligarchy, like what we see in contemporary russia, is only formed through the power of the state. even then, though, at some point they will reach a satiation point where without more freedom for the consumer, they cannot increase their wealth further.
I think the NIT eliminates the satiation point.
quote:
the main reason poor people stay in the US is b/c we allow them to via social welfare programs paid by others
I don't buy this line of reasoning. And where would poor people go? Having worked with immigrants, they only want to leave their home countries when there is more opportunity elsewhere. That's a reality I don't think you are admitting. There isn't another country nearby which presents more opportunity, so the poor have no reason to go.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:57 am to Antonio Moss
LINK
Here is the housing code enforcement for New Orleans. It is a "bit" like a home owner association.
Here is the housing code enforcement for New Orleans. It is a "bit" like a home owner association.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 11:57 am to OleWar
quote:
Here is the housing code enforcement for New Orleans. It is a "bit" like a home owner association.
Laws =\= contracts
Posted on 8/2/14 at 12:02 pm to crazy4lsu
quote:
There will be other smaller countries that will adapt quicker.
who?
western europe is fighting these even more strongly due to their anti-liberty, pro-reg beliefs. china is no threat due to it still being authoritarian. india doesn't have the money of infrastructure, yet. no other country develops this tech on a large scale right now, anyway.
quote:
I see the massive wealth created as an opportunity to live human lives fuller.
i don't see how decreasing public spending and redistribution of wealth is in contrast with this idea
quote:
And where would poor people go?
i don't know and i don't really care. our social welfare is so robust that we support our own poor AND other countries are literally combining efforts to send their poor here to suck off the siphon
quote:
they only want to leave their home countries when there is more opportunity elsewhere.
i think there will be some opportunity here, but if they are not part of an advanced economy, there won't be opportunity here. their "opportunity" is social welfare programs (aka, having other people fund their poor life choices). remove that and farm work in mexico is better
Posted on 8/2/14 at 12:04 pm to Antonio Moss
Describe for me then both if I were a member of a home owner association and if I were a resident of a city, how I would go about changing a "rule" or "law".
Posted on 8/2/14 at 12:04 pm to SlowFlowPro
I have a staunch liberal friend who is an uber driver
Posted on 8/2/14 at 12:06 pm to monsterballads
time to #convert
Posted on 8/2/14 at 12:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
who?
Obviously the transition to the advanced economy will not be uniform anywhere in the world, but I see it much more likely starting in cities before being adopted at the national level, or some of the Asian tiger economies aggressively adopting tech, or an Emirate hoping to be seen as progressive, though it is much more likely that a progressive (in terms of tech) American city would be the most likely.
quote:
i don't see how decreasing public spending and redistribution of wealth is in contrast with this idea
Well the differences is between exclusion vs inclusion.
quote:
i don't know and i don't really care
My point is that they wouldn't leave even if you cut off the social welfare.
Posted on 8/2/14 at 12:45 pm to OleWar
quote:
Why should I be subject to some a-hole renting out his house next door to a bunch of miscreants
Do you also believe you should have a say to whom the owner sells his house to if he decides to move?
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