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Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:08 pm to catholictigerfan
I agee with both of the original posters points. There is no Utopian form of government and that includes total anarchy as I feel certain someone will bring that up if I don't mention it.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:09 pm to DanTiger
quote:
includes total anarchy
So, what is the bright line difference between 'total' anarchy and 'semi' anarchy?
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:11 pm to KeyserSoze999
to build off this child labor thing, is there a underlying justice that governs economics? What I mean by this is there some norms that are held by a large majority that has an influence on how economics work. Looking at economic efficiency alone would not forbid the use of child labor, I'm sure some would say oh that is ok but many people will say child labor is wrong. To further my point, should money and profits alone determine what a company can do? Is there some system of justice that governs how people work? Now I know this may be hard to wrap your head around because people in this country think very legalistically and the only way to govern things i government. I don't think the governing of economic systems necessarily has to be governed by the government. I rather have a system where economies are generally free and it is governed by norms that are generally accepted by everyone, the government steps in when there is a violation of justice not just a violation of some government law.
I think unregulated economies are dangerous but it is hard to explain how you can regulate economies outside of the government. I think there is a way but in this country the only way you regulate the economy is through the government.
I think unregulated economies are dangerous but it is hard to explain how you can regulate economies outside of the government. I think there is a way but in this country the only way you regulate the economy is through the government.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:12 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
sure both are next to impossible to get but true Captialism really is the best for society.
This needs to be explained, it's not acceptable for this to be said as a truth without explanation.
When you look at the truth, the human body has been hurt by capitalism (the virtues of capitalism are capable of helping everything including the body but because of human nature the opposite has been true). The planet has been hurt by capitalism, animal life has been hurt, financially the planet is a disaster.
So no, making blanket statements like 'capitalism is the best, mmmkay' is not acceptable during a real conversation.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:15 pm to Zach
quote:
So, what is the bright line difference between 'total' anarchy and 'semi' anarchy?
I think this would be anarchy vs minarchy.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:17 pm to Zach
quote:
So, what is the bright line difference between 'total' anarchy and 'semi' anarchy?
Sean Young = Semi anarchy
Gary Busey = Total anarchy
Get it?
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:18 pm to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
I think this would be anarchy vs minarchy.
OK, give me an example of a policy that an anarchist would accept but a minarchist would oppose?
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:23 pm to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
This needs to be explained, it's not acceptable for this to be said as a truth without explanation.
When you look at the truth, the human body has been hurt by capitalism (the virtues of capitalism are capable of helping everything including the body but because of human nature the opposite has been true). The planet has been hurt by capitalism, animal life has been hurt, financially the planet is a disaster.
So no, making blanket statements like 'capitalism is the best, mmmkay' is not acceptable during a real conversation.
real quick because I don't have much time.
when looking at economic systems alone (outside of the government influence, societal influence, etc.) capitalism gives a society the best economic growth possible. It is the most efficient economic system we know.
Now on the side of morality, I don't know if it is fair to reject capitalism on morality grounds. First of all economics only secondarily involves morality, the morality of a society effects how certain business transactions take place. For example, today's society believes child labor is morally wrong, so businesses in general won't hire children to do their labor, sure there are laws against it, but I don't think companies would go out and hire thousands of children if that law got overturned. There is a strong sense of the restfulness of the weekends. To my knowledge, there are no or few laws that say that business take weekends off, but many businesses are closed on weekends. This would clearly be an instance where culture influences the economy without the need for government.
Now I can't invasion a way this can happen, but if possible I would prefer that the society governs the morality of the economy, rather than the government governing the economy. Sometimes governments have to step in where society doesn't do well. But to your examples, there are many companies that are going "green" sure customer appeal has an impact not hat but this is another example of the society affecting business with no necessarily impact from the government.
to put it in one sentence. Capitalism is the most efficient economic system, the society should influence how the economy works by instilling morality in the economy. This is the best way to prevent what you don't want.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:27 pm to catholictigerfan
real quick to further prove my point.
take this analogy
a teacher tells his students that there will be a curve and anti curve based on the performance of the class, the class average will be everyone's grade on the test. They take the first test and get a 90% average, those who got near a 100% are pissed those who got a failing grade are happy. The next test roles around and the average drops to a 70%, the third test down to 60%. To put it simply if there is no reward for hard work and success, people won't work as hard. If you were to take that same analogy and use a capitalistic type class, you get the grade you put your work into. Grade averages would probably go up because you are rewarded for your hard work.
so if the analogy holds true in the real world. A socialistic society will eventually slow it's growth and struggle to keep up with the growth of the society. While capitalism will keep up with the growth of a society.
take this analogy
a teacher tells his students that there will be a curve and anti curve based on the performance of the class, the class average will be everyone's grade on the test. They take the first test and get a 90% average, those who got near a 100% are pissed those who got a failing grade are happy. The next test roles around and the average drops to a 70%, the third test down to 60%. To put it simply if there is no reward for hard work and success, people won't work as hard. If you were to take that same analogy and use a capitalistic type class, you get the grade you put your work into. Grade averages would probably go up because you are rewarded for your hard work.
so if the analogy holds true in the real world. A socialistic society will eventually slow it's growth and struggle to keep up with the growth of the society. While capitalism will keep up with the growth of a society.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:29 pm to Zach
quote:
OK, give me an example of a policy that an anarchist would accept but a minarchist would oppose?
Well there are left and right anarchists, so it would be hard to say which policies would be supported by an anarchist.
And this is a tricky thing, lots of contradictions and similarities.
A really brief difference between the two is this - the minarchist wants the smallest form of government, while many anarchist would agree that a bare minimum government would be nice, they believe that government is incapable of not growing and will eventually become oppressive.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:34 pm to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
This is a misconception created by statist socialists, not true Marxists.
So true.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:35 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
capitalism gives a society the best economic growth possible. It is the most efficient economic system we know.
This is acknowledged by the intellectual class that has fought capitalism. Capitalism is the best way to get gain quick wealth.
Capitalism works as it's intended to work, which is why many feel that capitalism is necessary in the evolution of 'isms'.
quote:
to put it in one sentence. Capitalism is the most efficient economic system, the society should influence how the economy works by instilling morality in the economy. This is the best way to prevent what you don't want.
This kinda sounds nice, but what does it mean? I'm not sure what you're saying has worked in action.
What morality is in our economy? It's sort of the opposite, no?
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:36 pm to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
A really brief difference between the two is this - the minarchist wants the smallest form of government, while many anarchist would agree that a bare minimum government would be nice, they believe that government is incapable of not growing and will eventually become oppressive.
That's not a distinction. IE, if I flipped it:
"the anarchist wants the smallest form of govt...while the minarchist believes govt is incapable of not growing and will eventually become oppressive."
Do you understand what 'bright line' means?
Posted on 4/7/14 at 1:43 pm to Zach
I don't get why you'd flip them..
Posted on 4/7/14 at 2:49 pm to WildTchoupitoulas
quote:Thank God he had the choice not to die.
It's not a 'choice' when the option is death.
It lead to you being here with us.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 2:52 pm to Sleeping Tiger
quote:
This kinda sounds nice, but what does it mean?
it means exactly what it sounds like. the Capitalistic or free market system is the most efficient means to bring about economic growth in society. To put it more simply a free market encourages economic growth by rewarding hard work. (now it doesn't always work that way but in theory it usually does) On the other hand a government run market doesn't encourage economic growth, especially when equality in success is forced.
one other way to put it.
the capitalist want to ensure the equality of opportunity, while socialists want to insure equality of success. Equality of success punishes success and rewards failure, while equality of opportunity rewards success and punishes failure. Just like I said in my class analogy. If students who score well are punished and students who do poorly are rewarded there is no incentive to do better. If everyone is equal in success or outcome than there is no incentive to do better because no matter how much you produce or acquire you will always be as well off as your neighbor. If things are equal for opportunity rather than success than usually if you work hard and are successful at your hard work you will be better off than someone who is lazy and isn't successful at his work.
I answered some of the questions you already posed go back and read what I said.
but pretty much morality isn't found in the economy by itself rather outside influences govern the way the economy works to fit it into a morality.
This post was edited on 4/7/14 at 2:53 pm
Posted on 4/7/14 at 2:56 pm to sabes que
quote:Do you think pioneers who settled the mid-west and western parts of this continent had it better? They weren't operating under an oppressive capitalist robber-baron, they were just trying to survive and make a life for themselves. As it turns out, many such starving folks found the jobs you deride in your pictures preferential to the hard lives they were enduring. What's wrong with that?
for the historically ignorant.
Thankfully, advances due to Capitalism have done away with such necessities.
Posted on 4/7/14 at 3:06 pm to Zach
quote:Privatization of Military and Police functions.
OK, give me an example of a policy that an anarchist would accept but a minarchist would oppose?
Minarchists support the night watchman state, no?
Posted on 4/7/14 at 3:09 pm to catholictigerfan
quote:
the capitalist want to ensure the equality of opportunity, while socialists want to insure equality of success.
You don't know what you're talking about (at all), but this is good, it's good for me to see where the misconceptions are and the severity of the misunderstandings of these isms.
Marx is sometimes indirect, but with this he's very direct, he writes about equality of opportunity, not success. This idea that everything is spread equally around is off base, tremendously off base. The statists socialist have created this misconception. It's capitalism that has destroyed equality of opportunity, which is of course going to be hard for most of you to understand. This isn't about the black kid that can climb out of the ghetto, that is possible with capitalism, but as a whole it does not create equal opportunity and as we get deeper into this system it becomes easier and easier for those that 'have' to get more while it becomes harder for those that don't have to rise.
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