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re: True or False: climate change
Posted on 3/13/17 at 4:15 pm to bmy
Posted on 3/13/17 at 4:15 pm to bmy
quote:
Raw data shouldn't be difficult to find. I'm basically just asking.
Actually, I think the raw data was destroyed. If this were true, would it change your mind about the validity of the "science" of global warming/cooling/disruption?
LINK /
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 4:25 pm
1
Posted on 3/13/17 at 4:16 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:Yes, because we're digging it up and burning it. Completely overwhelming the capacity of the natural sinks which operate at millenial time scales.
Emphasis on "will be again in a relatively quick time"!
Posted on 3/13/17 at 4:51 pm to Iosh
quote:
operate at millenial time scales.
We all know that we are in the warm period of cyclical ice ages (macro climate changes).
But let's look at the last "millennial time scale", a micro cycle, shall we?
In 950AD a warming period reversed the colder global temperatures. This warming period (called the Medieval Warm) lasted about 300 years (950AD-1250AD). This was the time period when wine grapes famously grew in England.
Then it began to get cold, really cold, so cold that scientists call this period the Little Ice Age. Life became hard! The cold lasted about 570 years (1250AD-1820AD).
Then thank the Good Lord it began to get warm again. Life became easier. The Modern Warm Period has lasted from 1820AD-Present, about 200 years.
So in the last millennia we have gone from cold to hot, back to cold, and hot again! And losh, this just forces me to ask you some questions since you appear to be both knowledgeable on the subject and an advocate that is not afraid to engage in an intelligent conversation.
While I am directing these questions to losh, please if you have the answer please jump in!
1) What is the normal or base temperature of the Earth in the last 1000 years?
2) What did humans do in 950AD to warm up the whole planet? The Vikings were starting to pillage, plunder, rape, murder, and burn. But they didn't burn that much!?
3) What did humanity do to restore the cold?
4) Did the people of 1250AD over correct the warming, or are the conditions of the Little Ice Age normal and/or desirable?
5) The amount of CO2 produced at the birth of the Industrial Revolution were minuscule. How did the people of 1820 put enough CO2 in the atmosphere to reverse the hard cold?
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 4:54 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 4:53 pm to Gaspergou202
Expect the usual suspects to disappear, rather than answer.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 4:59 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:I answered these interrogatories in the last thread and you skedaddled and left Dale51 to nip helplessly at my ankle for ten pages.
So in the last millennia we have gone from cold to hot, back to cold, and hot again! And losh, this just forces me to ask you some questions since you appear to be both knowledgeable on the subject and an advocate that is not afraid to engage in an intelligent conversation.
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 5:01 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:02 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:
So in your simplified what if, you left off strength of stellar radiation reaching said planet. How much radiation is being expelled and how far away the planet is from it's star, and what are the planetary conditions.
So for example after pumping all that " massive amounts of green house gasses, water vapor, CO2 etc.. over hundreds of years. " on Pluto the atmosphere would be identical since it would all freeze out on the surface. On Mars the polar ice caps would increase in an immeasurable way. On Mercury it would disappear into space. And on Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, and Neptune it would be unnoticed in the vast atmospheres. An atmosphere like ours can only exist with photosynthetic life, and life changes everything.
Let's keep it simple... three duplicate planets. Same exact parameters. Same atmosphere. Same earths. Same everything. Three scenarios.. and a greatly accelerated timescale.
quote:
Will the 3 planets have the same weather patterns and ultimately climate?
Planet 0 (baseline)- Humans/life exists as it does today. Greenhouse gas emissions, total carbon released, water vapor concentration is within current levels, etc. Let's let this planet be a control in this hypothetical experiment.
Planet 1 (4x more in atmosphere)- Humans/life exists as it does today but humans have intentionally began releasing greenhouse gasses, water vapor, CO2, etc. into the atmosphere at incredible levels and over 1,000 years the amounts in the atmosphere is 4x that of Planet 0.
Planet 2 (1/4th in atmosphere)- Humans/life exists as it does today but humans have intentionally began reducing the amount of greenhouse gasses, water vapor, CO2, etc. in the atmosphere at incredible levels and over 1,000 years the amounts have shrunk to 1/4x of Planet 0 levels.
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 5:03 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:10 pm to bmy
quote:
Let's keep it simple... three duplicate planets. Same exact parameters. Same atmosphere. Same earths. Same everything. Three scenarios.. and a greatly accelerated timescale.
Science!!!
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:13 pm to bmy
quote:Hats off!
Interested in all of it. They are all important to varying degrees
To be "interested in all of it" is a novel approach for many warmists.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:13 pm to bmy
quote:If a large asteroid hits this hypothetical planet would all the dinosaurs die because the climate changed radically in a matter of weeks?
If humans were to hypothetically take a planet (with an atmosphere similar to our own) and introduce massive amounts of green house gasses, water vapor,
CO2, etc.. over hundreds of years.. it would have the exact same weather patterns/climate as it would without human intervention
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:14 pm to Dale51
quote:
Actually, I think the raw data was destroyed. If this were true, would it change your mind about the validity of the "science" of global warming/cooling/disruption?
"Since the 1980s, we have merged the data we have received into existing series or begun new ones, so it is impossible to say if all stations within a particular country or if all of an individual record should be freely available. Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data."
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 5:15 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:15 pm to bmy
The science is good. The politicization of it is insane
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:17 pm to Iosh
quote:
quote: A few inconvenient questions that man-made climate change advocates can't answer. Back in the old Medieval days wine grapes grew very well in England. Since it's too cold to grow them today, the logical conclusion is that it was warmer then. 1) What were the Romans, Gaules, Angles, Norse, etc doing to pump all that CO2 into the atmosphere? Then it suddenly got colder, a lot colder! So cold in fact that smart scientist often refer to this period as the Little Ice Age. 2) What did humans do to cause this?! Did we stop exhaling CO2? 3) Why do these scientists never just propose what ever we did then, we do now? 1) They weren't, it was the sun. 2) They didn't, it was the sun. 3) It's not the sun this time. I dunno these seemed pretty convenient.
Thanks for the link. I reprinted it since my questions were a little different but essentially the same.
Now I first must start with an apology!
When I skimmed your answer last time all I noticed was it was the sun or nature was responsible for all the thousands and thousands of global climate changes in the past.
Frankly I thought you had converted! I was happy and thought any further communication with you would be so much piling on! You did not! I missed answer 3 I apologies!
Your answer to 3 indicates that the climate shift of 1820AD was not caused by the sun this time!
So please tell me what did cause the shift 200 years ago?
I did not understand the I don't know but this is convenient sentence.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:18 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
So the mass of atmospheric CO2 per unit volume on Mars is not very dissimilar to that on Earth
Link?
quote:
Mars is cold.
It's not as cold as the Moon at night - and it's twice as far away from the Sun.
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:19 pm to bmy
quote:
We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data."
Science!!!
* That actually qualifies as an excuse for getting rid of facts??*
"Your Honor...we don't have the actual evidence...but we do have, what we feel are accurate conclusions, based on what we figgered it meant."
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:21 pm to Dale51
quote:
Science!!!
schrodinger's cat is a thought experiment.. and so is this. I noticed you and bengal still refuse to answer a very basic question.
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 5:22 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:24 pm to Dale51
quote:
* That actually qualifies as an excuse for getting rid of facts??*
"Your Honor...we don't have the actual evidence...but we do have, what we feel are accurate conclusions, based on what we figgered it meant."
It should have been kept. Irrelevant to this thread
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 5:25 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:27 pm to Gaspergou202
quote:I don't know what you're referring to by the shift of 1820 AD. The only dataset that goes that far back is BEST and it doesn't show anything dramatic in 1820, just a recovery from the 1816 Tambora eruption. Large volcanoes cause negative spikes in GMST that recover in a short time due to dimming, you can see Pinatubo in 1991 and Agung in 1963.
Your answer to 3 indicates that the climate shift of 1820AD was not caused by the sun this time!
So please tell me what did cause the shift 200 years ago?
I did not understand the I don't know but this is convenient sentence.
Taking your question to refer more broadly to "the climate trend underway during 1820 AD" I would say that's mostly the sun as well. There are a few advocates of an "early anthropocene" that claim that land-use changes for agriculture were already driving things by this time but as far as I know that's a minority viewpoint.
The consensus view is that human influence didn't start to dominate until the mid-20th century. Obviously you won't see a discrete point for when that happens because the growth of emissions and reduction in solar irradiance were gradual trends.
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 5:34 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:28 pm to bmy
quote:It was still kept. Jones is referring to CRU's own storage; the raw data was and still is kept in full by NOAA. LINK
It should have been kept. Irrelevant to this thread
quote:
Refuting CEI's claims of data-destruction, Jones said, "We haven't destroyed anything. The data is still there -- you can still get these stations from the [NOAA] National Climatic Data Center."
This post was edited on 3/13/17 at 5:29 pm
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:30 pm to bmy
quote:
I noticed you and bengal still refuse to answer a very basic question.
Which is what?
Posted on 3/13/17 at 5:31 pm to Dale51
quote:
Which is what?
Will these 3 planets have the same weather patterns and ultimately climate?
Planet 0 (baseline)- Humans/life exists as it does today. Greenhouse gas emissions, total carbon released, water vapor concentration is within current levels, etc. Let's let this planet be a control in this hypothetical experiment.
Planet 1 (4x more in atmosphere)- Humans/life exists as it does today but humans have intentionally began releasing greenhouse gasses, water vapor, CO2, etc. into the atmosphere at incredible levels and over 1,000 years the amounts in the atmosphere is 4x that of Planet 0.
Planet 2 (1/4th in atmosphere)- Humans/life exists as it does today but humans have intentionally began reducing the amount of greenhouse gasses, water vapor, CO2, etc. in the atmosphere at incredible levels and over 1,000 years the amounts have shrunk to 1/4x of Planet 0 levels.
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