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Message
To all the Ukraine/Russia experts on the board
Posted on 4/18/24 at 6:17 am
Posted on 4/18/24 at 6:17 am
Please explain to me in real terms how Russia taking Ukraine would affect me.
Please tell me what amount of your own money are you willing to donate to Ukraine to prevent this from happening?
Would you be Ok with bankrupting America if it prevented Russia from taking Ukraine?
Why are Ukraine's borders worth protecting but our own borders are not?
Please tell me what amount of your own money are you willing to donate to Ukraine to prevent this from happening?
Would you be Ok with bankrupting America if it prevented Russia from taking Ukraine?
Why are Ukraine's borders worth protecting but our own borders are not?
This post was edited on 4/18/24 at 6:18 am
13
Posted on 4/18/24 at 6:28 am to RoosterCogburn585
quote:Not much if at all.
Please explain to me in real terms how Russia taking Ukraine would affect me.
quote:Zero dollars
Please tell me what amount of your own money are you willing to donate to Ukraine to prevent this from happening?
quote:America is already bankrupt.
Would you be Ok with bankrupting America if it prevented Russia from taking Ukraine?
quote:Neither are.
Why are Ukraine's borders worth protecting but our own borders are not?
The number one thing you need to understand and accept about the Russia/Ukraine War is that no one in Washington really cares about Russia or Ukraine but it's a war and wars make US politicians very rich from 1) kickbacks fon "Aid" money and 2) kickbacks from defense contracts. 3) kickbacks from post-war "infrastructure contractors" rebuilding all the shite the government paid to have blown up.
War is a very lucrative financial business for the worlds elite.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 6:30 am to RoosterCogburn585
Did you mean to post this on the OT?
Here on the PT, where most posters actually follow politics and keep up with this stuff, there are very few supporters of our funding the war in Ukraine.
Here on the PT, where most posters actually follow politics and keep up with this stuff, there are very few supporters of our funding the war in Ukraine.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 6:34 am to Snipe
quote:quote:
Why are Ukraine's borders worth protecting but our own borders are not?
Neither are.
Was with you till this point. Obviously a nation needs enforced borders if it is to continue to exist.
This post was edited on 4/18/24 at 6:34 am
Posted on 4/18/24 at 6:41 am to RoosterCogburn585
quote:
Please explain to me in real terms how Russia taking Ukraine would affect me.
Because something doesn't affect you, it's not important or worthwhile?
Posted on 4/18/24 at 6:47 am to BayouBlitz
quote:
Because something doesn't affect you, it's not important or worthwhile?
The result of this conflict, no matter which side "wins," would have never had any effect on the USA if we had simply stayed out of it.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 6:49 am to BayouBlitz
quote:
quote:
Please explain to me in real terms how Russia taking Ukraine would affect me.
Because something doesn't affect you, it's not important or worthwhile?
One can recognize that something is important and worthwhile, and hope that things change in the direction you prefer WITHOUT having a gun placed to your head and forced to give up your earnings to support it.
What I want to happen is that I cheer my college football team to a win on Saturday. What is happening is that my university is holding a gun to my head and stealing my earnings and giving those stolen earnings to the players and coaches, and no one seems willing to stop them. I don’t want to win on Saturday so badly that my life is threatened and I’m forced to lose my house.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 6:56 am to RoosterCogburn585
quote:
Please explain to me in real terms how Russia taking Ukraine would affect me. Please tell me what amount of your own money are you willing to donate to Ukraine to prevent this from happening? Would you be Ok with bankrupting America if it prevented Russia from taking Ukraine? Why are Ukraine's borders worth protecting but our own borders are not?
I’m not an expert, but I know you ask a bunch of dumb, loaded questions. I bet you stayed awake all night thinking of all those.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 7:28 am to RoosterCogburn585
Let me deal with your last two questions first because they are frivolous and not worthy of your first two.
The amount of money the US could end up spending on Ukraine is not significant when discussing the solvency of the United States. Note that I’m not claiming the amount is insignificant overall.
Your question of why Ukraine’s borders are worth protecting but ours are not is not legitimate. Illegal immigration, as bad as it is, is not the same as an armed invasion. Also, there are huge numbers of people who are appalled at the illegal immigration but support funding for Ukraine.
Now for your serious questions.
The effect on you is huge. The folks who have the most influence in the Western liberal democracies are the group that we used to call neo-conservatives - people like Bill Kristol. The tale of American politics since WW2 can be told by the actions of this group.
After WW2 this group were communist fellow-travellers. They believed in a worldview in which soft-communism was the way of the future. So they supported the Democrat Party. As the USSR failed economically, and the depredations of the communist governments were revealed (most notably with publication of Gulag Archipelago) this group became disillusioned and swung their support to the Republican Party starting in 1980. But they had not given up on their frustrated ambitions of a one-world government under socialist auspices.
It stayed that way until the Democrats abandoned their union support and accepted the free trade policies, like NAFTA. NAFTA and the great offshoring that took place in the decades since 1980 are part of their plan to unite the world in a one-world government.
They have the best motives for this. They believe it will end warfare, provide a high minimum standard of living for everyone, and allow mankind to save the world from such as climate change.
Since 1950 this group of people - not numerous when counting votes, but extremely impactful as influencers - has been the main determinant in which party runs America. And don’t confuse them with the Woke movement of radical leftists; that is not who they are. In fact, they maintain power by balancing the hard left against the hard right and providing the small force that moves the needle of policy.
So how does it affect you? If the US soundly defeats Russia in Ukraine it would be a huge step in the direction of unifying the world under one government. They would still be far from that, but making progress.
I believe that a one-world government is the biggest danger mankind faces. Like all utopian plans, it has a rational basis - the freeing of mankind from crimes of warfare, and everyone pulling in the same direction - but it fails to take into account that all governments eventually fall into the hands of brutal tyrants, and in a one-world government there would be no way to ever overthrow such a tyrant.
I am torn over Ukraine. If I could have everything my way I would go all in on defending Ukraine and the principle that the established order shall not be violated. However, I can’t escape the fact that doing so would probably strengthen the one-worlders’ camp a lot more than mine.
All of this to say that what is happening in Ukraine is extremely important to you and me. In March of 1936 there were Britons saying, “What does it matter to me that Germany has taken The Rhineland”.
If that’s not enough controversy for one post I’ll add that Jeff Bridges played you better than John Wayne. Fight me!
The amount of money the US could end up spending on Ukraine is not significant when discussing the solvency of the United States. Note that I’m not claiming the amount is insignificant overall.
Your question of why Ukraine’s borders are worth protecting but ours are not is not legitimate. Illegal immigration, as bad as it is, is not the same as an armed invasion. Also, there are huge numbers of people who are appalled at the illegal immigration but support funding for Ukraine.
Now for your serious questions.
The effect on you is huge. The folks who have the most influence in the Western liberal democracies are the group that we used to call neo-conservatives - people like Bill Kristol. The tale of American politics since WW2 can be told by the actions of this group.
After WW2 this group were communist fellow-travellers. They believed in a worldview in which soft-communism was the way of the future. So they supported the Democrat Party. As the USSR failed economically, and the depredations of the communist governments were revealed (most notably with publication of Gulag Archipelago) this group became disillusioned and swung their support to the Republican Party starting in 1980. But they had not given up on their frustrated ambitions of a one-world government under socialist auspices.
It stayed that way until the Democrats abandoned their union support and accepted the free trade policies, like NAFTA. NAFTA and the great offshoring that took place in the decades since 1980 are part of their plan to unite the world in a one-world government.
They have the best motives for this. They believe it will end warfare, provide a high minimum standard of living for everyone, and allow mankind to save the world from such as climate change.
Since 1950 this group of people - not numerous when counting votes, but extremely impactful as influencers - has been the main determinant in which party runs America. And don’t confuse them with the Woke movement of radical leftists; that is not who they are. In fact, they maintain power by balancing the hard left against the hard right and providing the small force that moves the needle of policy.
So how does it affect you? If the US soundly defeats Russia in Ukraine it would be a huge step in the direction of unifying the world under one government. They would still be far from that, but making progress.
I believe that a one-world government is the biggest danger mankind faces. Like all utopian plans, it has a rational basis - the freeing of mankind from crimes of warfare, and everyone pulling in the same direction - but it fails to take into account that all governments eventually fall into the hands of brutal tyrants, and in a one-world government there would be no way to ever overthrow such a tyrant.
I am torn over Ukraine. If I could have everything my way I would go all in on defending Ukraine and the principle that the established order shall not be violated. However, I can’t escape the fact that doing so would probably strengthen the one-worlders’ camp a lot more than mine.
All of this to say that what is happening in Ukraine is extremely important to you and me. In March of 1936 there were Britons saying, “What does it matter to me that Germany has taken The Rhineland”.
If that’s not enough controversy for one post I’ll add that Jeff Bridges played you better than John Wayne. Fight me!
Posted on 4/18/24 at 7:30 am to BayouBlitz
quote:
Because something doesn't affect you, it's not important or worthwhile?
Can it not be important and us not spend 100bil on something that would never affect us in anyway?
Posted on 4/18/24 at 7:43 am to BayouBlitz
quote:
Because something doesn't affect you, it's not important or worthwhile?
When it's the foreign policy of the United States and will cost the American taxpayer hundreds of billions of dollars and directly involves us materially and politically in active warfare against a nuclear power on the other side of the world, yes, you need to have a pretty detailed and convincing argument as to why we should be involving ourselves and how it is in our vital national interest.
Something can obviously be "important and worthwhile" to someone's interests, but not ours. Does what's important or worthwhile to Ukraine compel the American population to commit its tax monies and national security to Ukraine's interests? Do the American people have a right to say no to the government using their tax money to fund a foreign country's war? Do we have the right to tell our government that we don't want to take a side? Do we have a right to question the state narrative that Russia poses a threat of aggression against the United States or NATO? Do we have a right to question whether the US and NATO's policies have served to worsen our relations with Russia instead of to ensure trust and security?
Is it worth our riches, national prestige, and possibly a major war in order to pursue a policy of "weakening Russia" or maintaining a status quo relative power balance over them? Is it wise policy for the United States to volunteer ourselves to take on the financial costs and the nonsensical risks of conflict in order to take a side in this war between two Slavic states that fundamentally does not harm any tangible US interests? Americans have every right to ask these questions of their government BEFORE this involvement occurs and we have every right to tell them no. The unelected and unaccountable neocon defense and intelligence establishment has a stranglehold on both parties and manipulates the political discourse to promote a narrative that demands U.S. intervention as standard operating procedure. They attempt to smear and destroy any political actor that might effectively push a message of change to American foreign policy.
This post was edited on 4/18/24 at 7:45 am
Posted on 4/18/24 at 7:53 am to RoosterCogburn585
How would Iran bombing Israel affect me and why should we defend Israel from Iran?
How would North Korea fighting South Korea affect me and why should we defend them?
How would Russia attacking the Baltics, Romania, Poland, etc, affect me and why should we defend them?
My point is, if you believe we are obligated to defend any of these countries, and stay committed to our alliances, then backing Ukraine against Russia is very important in maintaining that status quo. I’m sure you believe we should support and defend Israel, even though the only true basis for that for most people, especially conservatives is that the Bible says so. So why shouldn’t we back Ukraine against Russian aggression? Why is this the one foreign issue MAGA extremes are against us supporting? It doesn’t make sense to me because I know you and most complaining against backing Ukraine, back all these other military alliances we’re in. It’s well known that Moscow is always trying to undermine the United States system since 1945. How can that not be seen as that and how can we not take that seriously?
It’s a small minded view and shows a lack of awareness, to say “Oh it doesn’t really affect me, so why should we bother?”
How would North Korea fighting South Korea affect me and why should we defend them?
How would Russia attacking the Baltics, Romania, Poland, etc, affect me and why should we defend them?
My point is, if you believe we are obligated to defend any of these countries, and stay committed to our alliances, then backing Ukraine against Russia is very important in maintaining that status quo. I’m sure you believe we should support and defend Israel, even though the only true basis for that for most people, especially conservatives is that the Bible says so. So why shouldn’t we back Ukraine against Russian aggression? Why is this the one foreign issue MAGA extremes are against us supporting? It doesn’t make sense to me because I know you and most complaining against backing Ukraine, back all these other military alliances we’re in. It’s well known that Moscow is always trying to undermine the United States system since 1945. How can that not be seen as that and how can we not take that seriously?
It’s a small minded view and shows a lack of awareness, to say “Oh it doesn’t really affect me, so why should we bother?”
This post was edited on 4/18/24 at 7:58 am
Posted on 4/18/24 at 7:57 am to ChewyDante
quote:
Is it worth our riches, national prestige, and possibly a major war in order to pursue a policy of "weakening Russia"
How do I know that this often stated goal is 100% bullschitt, and the real goal is making the MIC members fabulously wealthy and lining political pockets?
If Russia and Gaza surrendered tomorrow, how long would the US go before dropping bombs on some faraway place because ‘CRISIS!!!’
This post was edited on 4/18/24 at 7:58 am
Posted on 4/18/24 at 8:20 am to RoosterCogburn585
It depends. If the Ukrainians were to capitulate, and the Russians maintain a static position, minimal effect. But if you have total Ukrainian collapse and an emboldened Russia crossing the Dnieper taking Kiev and Odessa, it could be a problem for our allies across the Eastern end of NATO.....and as such us.
Unless your aim is to have the US abandon Europe and high tail it back across the Atlantic.
Unless your aim is to have the US abandon Europe and high tail it back across the Atlantic.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 8:22 am to RoosterCogburn585
quote:
Would you be Ok with bankrupting America if it prevented Russia from taking Ukraine?
I’ve got bad news for you. The Ukraine money is a drop in the bucket. This country isn’t in the ballpark of solvency and nobody is going to do anything to stop it.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 8:45 am to RoosterCogburn585
quote:
Please explain to me in real terms how Russia taking Ukraine would affect me.
It's not Ukraine. Ukraine is just the first stop on the way to Poland and Romania. Ukraine, by itself, does nothing to improve Russia's security situation. It will affect you if we end up in an actual shooting war with Russia.
quote:
Please tell me what amount of your own money are you willing to donate to Ukraine to prevent this from happening?
I don't want to send them cash, but I have no problem sending them old hardware that we were going to give away or decommission anyway.
quote:
Would you be Ok with bankrupting America if it prevented Russia from taking Ukraine?
No, but we're beyond bankrupt anyway. There shouldn't be money "for Ukraine" in our budget. There should just be money in the defense budget to replace the old stuff that we send to Ukraine.
quote:
Why are Ukraine's borders worth protecting but our own borders are not?
This doesn't really have anything to do with Ukraine. We should completely lock down our own border regardless of what happens in Europe.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 9:14 am to Tantal
quote:
Ukraine is just the first stop on the way to Poland and Romania.
You people acting like Russia is the boogeyman we have to save Europe from are hilarious. This entire conflict was started by the US so they can further surround Russia with NATO entities and destabilize Russia with intent to have a like minded leader installed there as well.
The CIA ousted Yanukovych in 2014 with a color revolution and installed Zelensky (preventing an economic agreement with Russia). The CIA then built over 26 bio labs (Nuland testified to this in Congress for justifying more cash), then CIA built 12 secret forward ops bases (as noted in the NYT article) with which were used to run ops against Russia. Then the CIA blew up Russia's Nordstream pipeline (likely to prevent Germany and others from reaching a deal with Russia and money to US contractors for supplying gas). Then there's Navalny. No certain details about him, but he had connections to CIA and MI6. Russia is defending itself. If you pull the CIA out of Ukraine, this entire conflict ends immediately. If Russia pulled all that crap in Mexico, you'd better believe the US would be doing the same thing and invading the border country.
This post was edited on 4/18/24 at 9:49 am
Posted on 4/18/24 at 9:42 am to RoosterCogburn585
quote:
Please explain to me in real terms how Russia taking Ukraine would affect me.
It won’t.
quote:
Please tell me what amount of your own money are you willing to donate to Ukraine to prevent this from happening?
$0.
quote:
Would you be Ok with bankrupting America if it prevented Russia from taking Ukraine?
No.
quote:
Why are Ukraine's borders worth protecting but our own borders are not?
Ukraine’s borders aren’t worth protecting but our own borders are.
Posted on 4/18/24 at 9:45 am to Tantal
quote:
Ukraine is just the first stop on the way to Poland and Romania.
Before you know it, Russia will be in Paris and London.
If Ukraine can beat Russia with just our weapons and not our manpower, then there is no way in hell Russia could ever threaten Poland and beyond. It doesn't make any sense to think Russia will go into Poland based on how this war has progressed (there was never a reason to believe this either).
Posted on 4/18/24 at 9:51 am to RoosterCogburn585
quote:
Please explain to me in real terms how Russia taking Ukraine would affect me.
Russia is not taking all of Ukraine. They are just taking the Russo-centric eastern part that wants to be annexed by Russia. Russia want's the eastern part of Ukraine, especially Crimea to maintain access to the Black Sea. The Black Sea ports allow commerce with Western markets.
If Russia is fully allowed to conduct commerce with the West the net effect on you would be lower energy and commodity prices.
What this Ukraine conflict is really about is a battle to keep you locked into Western markets and away from cheaper Russian energy (albeit some European countries are defying western sanctions and still buying cheap Russian energy).
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