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Message
re: The Good People of Switzerland have said no to government healthcare
Posted on 9/29/14 at 12:41 pm to Korkstand
Posted on 9/29/14 at 12:41 pm to Korkstand
Except for cases where your life is literally hanging by a thread and you need to go the emergency room, I definitely think healthcare can be called a commodity. If we just had emergency health insurance, as it should be, people would be forced to compare prices for the little things they need help with, such as the common flu, rashes, sprains, broken bones, etc.
Some clinics inside places like walgreens and CVS post their prices on a menu, and I like that because it is vital for consumers to compare prices for a market to work.
Some clinics inside places like walgreens and CVS post their prices on a menu, and I like that because it is vital for consumers to compare prices for a market to work.
1
Posted on 9/29/14 at 1:13 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Would've been nice if we would've been able to have a national referendum on Obamacare
Sadly it still would've passed at the time I believe, Mightve had a chance at it getting shot down after the disastrous rollout though
Sadly it still would've passed at the time I believe, Mightve had a chance at it getting shot down after the disastrous rollout though
Posted on 9/29/14 at 1:19 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:Yes, common medical needs with standard treatment options can definitely be called commodities. And I agree, we should just have insurance for emergency, high-priced treatments.
If we just had emergency health insurance, as it should be, people would be forced to compare prices for the little things they need help with, such as the common flu, rashes, sprains, broken bones, etc.
Markets work when customers choose the products they buy, not when the "product" chooses the customer.
quote:Exactly. And the disconnect between what we shop and pay for (insurance) and what we receive (health care) hides and distorts the cost of those services.
Some clinics inside places like walgreens and CVS post their prices on a menu, and I like that because it is vital for consumers to compare prices for a market to work.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 2:29 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
The pinkos of Switzerland truly believe that the price of a commodity should be determined by income level.
I know a few people who think this. They're economically illiterate.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 2:54 pm to Korkstand
quote:Who is forced to take healthcare?
Markets work when customers choose the products they buy, not when the "product" chooses the customer.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 4:26 pm to Taxing Authority
Is that suppose to be a serious question?
How can one choose not to take healthcare?
How can one choose not to take healthcare?
Posted on 9/29/14 at 4:33 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:Oh, right, there is always the "just die" option.
Who is forced to take healthcare?
Just keep acting like shopping for cancer treatment (or shopping for insurance that will even come close to helping you maintain your financial position) is the same as shopping for any other good or service. Who knows, maybe your fantasy land will exist some day.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 5:27 pm to Korkstand
quote:Yes. Do you think that government (or anyone else) will supply everything you want?
Oh, right, there is always the "just die" option.
quote:not sure what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that something as valuable as life saving care should not change your "financial position"? Something that differentiates between life and death would seemingly be worth something. A lot in fact.
Just keep acting like shopping for cancer treatment (or shopping for insurance that will even come close to helping you maintain your financial position) is the same as shopping for any other good or service.
This post was edited on 9/29/14 at 5:28 pm
Posted on 9/29/14 at 5:41 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
let me just say that it is still a very positive thing that they rejected government control of the care. THAT is the subject of this thread.
This does not surprise me. Switzerland doesn't even really have a Central Government of any kind. Or rather, the Constitution they adopted is very similar to our own except that they have not abandoned decision making at the 'Canton'-level or in USA, 'state-level'.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 5:46 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:No, I am saying that health care is not a commodity.
Yes. Do you think that government (or anyone else) will supply everything you want?
quote:I'm trying to say that health care is not a typical good or service.
not sure what you're trying to say here.
quote:No, I said that finding insurance that will cover an adequate proportion of cancer treatment so that your financial position wouldn't be ruined anyway is difficult, much like if one had to shop for out of pocket cancer treatment. What I was really saying is, again, that health care is not a commodity.
Are you saying that something as valuable as life saving care should not change your "financial position"?
quote:Exactly. It is worth a lot. It is worth "life", in fact, and is the reason health care is not a commodity.
Something that differentiates between life and death would seemingly be worth something. A lot in fact.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 5:59 pm to Korkstand
quote:Hell no it's not! It's extremely valuable!
I'm trying to say that health care is not a typical good or service.
quote:Well ok. But I'm still not sure why one would expect to not have their financial position significantly altered.
No, I said that finding insurance that will cover an adequate proportion of cancer treatment so that your financial position wouldn't be ruined anyway is difficult, much like if one had to shop for out of pocket cancer treatment.
quote:Not sure I understand. Just because something is valuable, doesn't imply it ceases to be a commodity.
Exactly. It is worth a lot. It is worth "life", in fact, and is the reason health care is not a commodity.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 7:11 pm to Tigah in the ATL
quote:
Most of our healthcare is defacto govt controlled anyway. I don't like it but it's reality.
MediCare is where money is spent in truckloads.
This. One of the issues we are having right now is we kind of have this hybrid bullshite system going on where "Free market" insurance is heavily influenced be extra-market forces from the government.
Single payer would be "better" than what we have right now, but so would drastically cutting government influence on insurance- including allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines.
quote:
Exactly. It is worth a lot. It is worth "life", in fact, and is the reason health care is not a commodity.
Food is a commodity. So is water and shelter.
This post was edited on 9/29/14 at 7:13 pm
Posted on 9/29/14 at 7:47 pm to Tiguar
quote:
Food is a commodity. So is water and shelter.
Expensive foods, water, and shelter are luxuries. Expensive health care is life or death.
Health care is not a commodity, which should be evidenced by the fact that an entire industry (insurance) exists in an attempt to put a free market face on it.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 7:54 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Health care is not a commodity, which should be evidenced by the fact that an entire industry (insurance) exists in an attempt to put a free market face on it.
Wut?
Posted on 9/29/14 at 8:00 pm to Korkstand
Just because something is not a luxury doesn't mean it's not a commodity. A bag of beans is still a commodity.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 8:11 pm to the808bass
quote:
Wut?
Sure, I'll explain it yet again.
Nobody says "I think I'll buy an appendectomy today". You can't resell an appendectomy. An appendectomy doesn't add value to anything that you can resell. If you need an appendectomy, you can't wait until next year to see if prices go down.
Health care is not like other necessities like food. With food, you can shop around. You can buy cheap food, or expensive food if you want to splurge and can afford it. Nobody has ever been faced with having to buy a six figure meal or die. The only part of health care that even resembles other commodities is health insurance. That's the free market face I mentioned.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 8:17 pm to Tiguar
quote:Huh? I meant that, while both food and health care are necessities, only food is a commodity. Expensive "luxury" foods are never necessary. Conversely, the most necessary, life-saving health care is the most expensive.
Just because something is not a luxury doesn't mean it's not a commodity.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 8:22 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:
Not sure I understand. Just because something is valuable, doesn't imply it ceases to be a commodity.
It's not a commodity because you can't decide when to buy what type of health care, or how much to buy.
Insurance attempts to solve this problem.
Posted on 9/29/14 at 8:24 pm to Korkstand
quote:It is defined by nature of the US market.
Sure, I'll explain it yet again.
Nobody says "I think I'll buy an appendectomy today". You can't resell an appendectomy. An appendectomy doesn't add value to anything that you can resell. If you need an appendectomy, you can't wait until next year to see if prices go down.
The best surgeon in the US is basically relegated by payors to the same fee as the worst. Has to do with unintended impact of Stark Laws among other things.
But in the larger context, what are you arguing relative to compensation for provision of healthcare? You are correct, in that HC is a service rather than commodity. How does that difference influence value and compensation?
Posted on 9/29/14 at 11:56 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:I haven't argued anything as far as compensation. I have simply argued against OP's assertion that health care is a commodity.
But in the larger context, what are you arguing relative to compensation for provision of healthcare?
quote:I wasn't arguing that health care isn't a commodity because it is a service, as many services can fit a loose definition of 'commodity'. My argument that health care is not a commodity revolves around a number of points that I have laid out all over this thread. The main point being that insurance exists in order to make the health care market somewhat resemble an actual free market. Because the customer has little choice over which underlying services to buy, and little or no opportunity to 'shop around' for these services.
You are correct, in that HC is a service rather than commodity.
quote:Again, I haven't made any argument regarding value or compensation. I have only said that health care itself is not a commodity, that it only resembles such thanks to insurance putting a free market front on it, and that it is a very complex market that doesn't function very well when treated as a regular commodity in a free market. Hence the global discussion.
How does that difference influence value and compensation?
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