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Message
re: The Good People of Switzerland have said no to government healthcare
Posted on 9/30/14 at 12:50 am to Korkstand
Posted on 9/30/14 at 12:50 am to Korkstand
quote:Then why do so many want cheaper healthcare?
Expensive health care is life or death.
quote:False. Insurance exists for one reason. Because buyers believe (often correctly) that it will cost less with it than without it. Same reason commodities futures markets exist, btw.
which should be evidenced by the fact that an entire industry (insurance) exists in an attempt to put a free market face on it.
This post was edited on 9/30/14 at 12:56 am
1
Posted on 9/30/14 at 12:54 am to Korkstand
quote:We're back to where we started, who is forcing people to take healthcare?
It's not a commodity because you can't decide when to buy what type of health care, or how much to buy.
quote:False. You're describing a time shift. That is what credit is for. Insurance mitigates risk.
Insurance attempts to solve this problem.
I would agree, however that our modern perversion of "insurance" is little more than pre-paid care. Which is why it's price... is rising toward simply paying outright.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 6:39 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
Imagine letting the citizens of a country vote to decide. What a novel concept.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 9:34 am to Taxing Authority
quote:Most likely because costs are rising faster than inflation, with no end in sight.
Then why do so many want cheaper healthcare?
quote:It exists to share the risk and cost burden, because it is too risky to chance having to pay for expensive care out of pocket. Without insurance, health care does not at all resemble a free market. No competition for emergency care, no choice in what kind of care to receive (aside from your only choice or death), forced timelines for purchasing decisions (again, aside from just dying). Insurance mitigates the risk of being forced to participate in a non-free market.
False. Insurance exists for one reason. Because buyers believe (often correctly) that it will cost less with it than without it.
quote:Oh, jesus, this is so far from the truth, and you know it. Just think about how health care futures might work.
Same reason commodities futures markets exist, btw.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 9:41 am to Taxing Authority
quote:The desire to stay alive. You know, the one desire that trumps all others at all times.
We're back to where we started, who is forcing people to take healthcare?
We are only back to where we started because you refuse to see the argument to its end.
quote:Yeah, it mitigates the risk of being forced to buy a particular product at a particular price and time. Like I said.
False. You're describing a time shift. That is what credit is for. Insurance mitigates risk.
quote:The modern "perversion" of insurance is inevitable, IMO. Prices rise because the buyer has no negotiating power over the provider.
I would agree, however that our modern perversion of "insurance" is little more than pre-paid care. Which is why it's price... is rising toward simply paying outright.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 10:09 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
If you want to hijack it and use it to glorify messiahcare, then start your own thread.
The Resident LibTurds are cowards when it comes to starting their own threads, because they know that their weak shite will get demolished by rational thought.
They are much better at hijacking threads with snarky shitty comments.
Let's face it, they are the dregs.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 11:03 am to Korkstand
quote:Ok. I think your close. To me, what differentiates medical care from a common commodity, is that a consumer can demand - and receive care without paying for it.
The desire to stay alive. You know, the one desire that trumps all others at all times.
quote:Yup. I don't agree with your premise. I am trying understand it, even if I we won't agree.
We are only back to where we started because you refuse to see the argument to its end.
quote:Aye. Future price increases and payment timing (cash flow) are things you hedge against with saving or borrowing.
Yeah, it mitigates the risk of being forced to buy a particular product at a particular price and time.
Insurance is used for events that may/may not happen. It seems many have the idea that "insurance" is a magic mechanism where you pay $200 a month and receive infinite care out. That's not insurance.
Someone above described healthcare as an inevitability. Inevitable events are essentially uninsurable.
quote:I agree. Of the majority of people believe it to be cheaper if buy it. They are using it as cost avoidance, not risk avoidance. In the long run, I don't see that current model being sustainable.
The modern "perversion" of insurance is inevitable, IMO.
quote:I disagree. For the insured, the patient is NOT the customer. Clearly insurers (the customer) exert a LOT of pricing pressure on providers (ask any cardiologist).
Prices rise because the buyer has no negotiating power over the provider.
I realize you may be talking about self-pay individuals here. And no, the single patient does not have near the pricing power of an insurance company with thousands of customers.
But... I look at all of the hospital expansions I see around... And can't help but think that if prices were set very far above customers what can pay (either via insurance or as individuals) those places would empty fairly quickly.
A lot of supply, and pricing above what consumers can afford is a recipe for... falling prices. I think?
But for now someone is filling those facilities. I'd reckon part if reason is that the providers can get more from insurance companies that the customers can pay. Subsidized payments are undoubtedly a significant part prices increases.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 11:39 am to Taxing Authority
quote:You're getting into ethical territory here that's not necessary.
Ok. I think your close. To me, what differentiates medical care from a common commodity, is that a consumer can demand - and receive care without paying for it.
quote:My premise is that health care is not a commodity. There are numerous reasons why this is true, not the least of which is that purchasing decisions are forced on the buyer (recipient of services, to be clear). A commodity market must be free, but the health care provider-recipient relationship is anything but free. Insurance is the middleman band-aid that is our best attempt at resolving this.
Yup. I don't agree with your premise. I am trying understand it, even if I we won't agree.
quote:Not me.
It seems many have the idea that "insurance" is a magic mechanism where you pay $200 a month and receive infinite care out.
quote:Why differentiate, when what we are avoiding is the risk of excessive costs?
They are using it as cost avoidance, not risk avoidance.
quote:Exactly! The patient is not participating in a free market.
For the insured, the patient is NOT the customer.
quote:Yes, but pricing pressure is only one part of negotiation. Insurers cannot refuse to accept service (especially if services were already rendered). Insurers cannot shop around for competitors' pricing in cases of emergency. How much negotiating power do insurers really have if they have to come to terms, but the provider does not?
Clearly insurers (the customer) exert a LOT of pricing pressure on providers (ask any cardiologist).
quote:Anecdotes, now? My local hospital shut down a few years ago.
But... I look at all of the hospital expansions I see around... And can't help but think that if prices were set very far above customers what can pay (either via insurance or as individuals) those places would empty fairly quickly.
quote:It would work that way, if the health care market followed the laws of supply and demand. Unfortunately, since health care is not a commodity, or anything resembling a commodity, it doesn't. Price has little to no effect on the demand for life-saving treatment. Some people demand certain treatment at any price, and others demand it at no price, even free.
A lot of supply, and pricing above what consumers can afford is a recipe for... falling prices. I think?
Posted on 9/30/14 at 12:35 pm to Korkstand
quote:Wasn't intended to a comment on ethics. It was aimed at noting there is very little to limit demand.
You're getting into ethical territory here that's not necessary.
quote:Currently, I would agree. But I'm not sure we agree that it has to be this way.
A commodity market must be free, but the health care provider-recipient relationship is anything but free.
quote:Ah. Good question. Risk of cost is different than risk of an event. The high price of medical care is easily predictable, and easily observable. It's expensive. Just about everyone knows that.
Not me.[/quoteIt was a generality. It wasn't aimed at you.
[quote]Why differentiate, when what we are avoiding is the risk of excessive costs?
Medical policies are almost always one year term. That a terrible tool for hedging future costs. Wrong tool for the job.
I have long been in favor of long term health insurance similar a life insurance model.
quote:Insurers deny claims all the time.
Insurers cannot refuse to accept service (especially if services were already rendered).
quote:Fair enough. Perhaps the hospitals are only in the places I visit? But it seems like an odd anomaly. I will look for data.
Anecdotes, now? My local hospital shut down a few years ago.
quote:I agree 100%. There is virtually no limit on demand. In your view, is that sustainable?
Price has little to no effect on the demand for life-saving treatment. Some people demand certain treatment at any price, and others demand it at no price, even free.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 12:58 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:Sounds good, let's do it.
I have long been in favor of long term health insurance similar a life insurance model.
quote:Ah, yes, so when negotiation falls through, the insured is back at the table with zero negotiating power. It's a piss-poor market all around when one side has all the power, isn't it?
Insurers deny claims all the time.
quote:Demand is limited by the number of people who need treatment. My point was that demand for life-saving treatment is not influenced by price, as demand for a commodity in a free market would.
There is virtually no limit on demand.
quote:Which part? But no, a market in which demand is not influenced by price, and in which one side has all of the negotiating power, is not sustainable as a free market. This is what I've been trying to tell you all along.
In your view, is that sustainable?
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:20 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Sounds good, let's do it.
quote:Aye. But the insured signed up for that when they agreed for the insurance company to act on their behalf, and took treatment without pre-approval.
the insured is back at the table with zero negotiating power. It's a piss-poor market all around when one side has all the power, isn't it?
quote:Aye. But that's a consumer/cultural choice. Not a market choice.
My point was that demand for life-saving treatment is not influenced by price,
quote:And I've agreed. I think where we disagree is whether that's an existential condition. I don't. Perhaps I'm a bit older, but I can remember a time when patients actually expected to pay for their services.
But no, a market in which demand is not influenced by price, and in which one side has all of the negotiating power, is not sustainable as a free market. This is what I've been trying to tell you all along.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:25 pm to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Before long, for instance, all OBGYN's who refuse to do abortions will not be allowed to take payments from Medicare, Medicaid, ObamaCare, or any government paid for health care.
I know you were being facetious but this would never happen. The vast majority of OBGYNs refuse to preform abortions. Abortionist are pretty looked down upon in the OBGYN community and normally are not in the upper tier of providers.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:27 pm to TexasTiger89
quote:
Imagine letting the citizens of a country vote to decide. What a novel concept.
Except that it subjects my private property (the contents of my wallet) to a vote of the masses.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:29 pm to Korkstand
quote:
My premise is that health care is not a commodity.
That's foolish. Healthcare is absolutely a commodity.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:42 pm to Taxing Authority
quote:A cultural choice? Come on, man. It's a choice between living and dying, it's pretty universal. And price has little to do with demand. Take gunshot wounds, for example, treatment for which can range from 5 to 6 figures. If you got shot, would it matter whether it costs $100k, $10k, or $10? No, you'd get that shite fixed. If it only cost $10, would demand for gunshot treatment increase? No, demand depends on how many people get shot. You're saying this is a cultural choice? No, it's the reality of the market. It does not follow the laws of supply and demand.
Aye. But that's a consumer/cultural choice. Not a market choice.
quote:So, you agree with the only point I've tried to make in this thread? Great. Are we arguing over a solution now, since we both know the current system is broken?
And I've agreed. I think where we disagree is whether that's an existential condition. I don't. Perhaps I'm a bit older, but I can remember a time when patients actually expected to pay for their services.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 1:43 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:Christ, another one? Have you even read the thread?
That's foolish. Healthcare is absolutely a commodity.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 3:28 pm to Korkstand
quote:
Christ, another one? Have you even read the thread?
Yes.
Healthcare is absolutely a commodity. There is a variable demand and a variable supply which determines its distribution.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 3:36 pm to Antonio Moss
quote:Variable demand for checkups, flu shots, things like that, things that insurance isn't necessary for, absolutely, and price influences demand. For emergencies, broken bones, heart attacks, etc, no, demand depends on population and random factors, and price does not influence demand for treatment.
There is a variable demand
This post was edited on 9/30/14 at 3:37 pm
Posted on 9/30/14 at 5:28 pm to Korkstand
quote:Are you attempting the case that healthcare is not a service?
I wasn't arguing that health care isn't a commodity because it is a service, as many services can fit a loose definition of 'commodity'.
quote:Health Insurance exists for exactly the opposite reason. Understanding the "underlying service" is medicine, not insurance, you make that case effectively: "the customer has little choice over which underlying services to buy, and little or no opportunity to 'shop around' for these services."
The main point being that insurance exists in order to make the health care market somewhat resemble an actual free market.
Posted on 9/30/14 at 6:04 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:No, I'm not, but it doesn't matter whether it is a service or not. I'm just saying that many health care treatments do not come close to fitting the definition of "commodities".
Are you attempting the case that healthcare is not a service?
quote:I'm not sure what you mean by the opposite reason.quote:Health Insurance exists for exactly the opposite reason.
The main point being that insurance exists in order to make the health care market somewhat resemble an actual free market.
Here's what I'm saying... the market for treatment of life-threatening emergencies, heart attacks, etc., without insurance, is nothing close to a free market in which supply, demand, and price are related. The quantity demanded is not influenced by price (at least not in a way that commodities are), and instead is dependent on other factors. Some form of insurance is required in order to give it some semblance of free market dynamics.
But even if we take "health care" to mean the combination of medicine/care and insurance, this health care three-way can still hardly be called a "commodity". Largely one-way negotiating power thanks to severely tipped scales as far as potential losses involving factors other than and in addition to money... It's just pretty obvious (to me) that it is much more complex than a basic commodity, and that pretending that it is and leaving it up to the market to sort it out is an error.
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