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Message
re: Texas AG sued to keep a Bible quote in school. Now he’s troubled by Muslim prayers.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:48 am to buckeye_vol
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:48 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
And the lawsuit was eventually dropped.
You forgot to mention that the school eliminated that free time altogether...and that they now allow the students to pray during their lunch period. Apparently they don't buy your argument that it appears to be school sponsored when it grows to be a large number of people.
1
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:54 am to DawgsLife
quote:And they still can. I could pray in school, and I talked about religion with people. But I wouldn't expect anything more than the school to provide an accommodation for a place to pray if necessary. It can't be unnecessarily disruptive (e.g., pray loudly in the middle of a lesson).
Christians are instructed to pray and to witness.
quote:No, I'm saying that schools should provide reasonable accommodations (a small room to pray) for all religions. No more, no less. As long as students can use the same accommodation (brief place to pray privately), then there is no issue.
Are you saying we should allow Muslims to practice their religion at school, but it is unacceptable for Christians to practice their religion?
Do you have evidence that the school in the OP is barring Christians from doing the same, if they request it?
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:56 am to DawgsLife
quote:I was just saying that I understood the schools concerns, when it becomes something that is so pervasive that even those who don't participate are exposed to it. I'm not saying they're right, but that is vastly different than a private room to pray.
Apparently they don't buy your argument that it appears to be school sponsored when it grows to be a large number of people.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 12:03 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
materially and substantially interfere[d] with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school
And getting up in the middle of class to pray does nto violate this? Hmmmm.....I wonder how this conversation would go if it were Christians wanting to walk out of class to pray? Oh. WAIT! You wouldn't like it even if they only did it during free period!
quote:
Sacrificing a chicken would clearly be inappropriate.
True.
But, appropriateness is in the eye of the beholder. It is perfectly logical and appropriate to a student that practices voodoo. I mean, do you consider it appropriate for students to walk out of classes to pray?
quote:
It was their free time! You are just being obtuse, now. It was fre time, that the students decided they wanted to pray.
It was their STUDY hall, but they weren't just praying, they were singing songs, etc. You could argue that should be acceptable (should have kept the lawsuit going), but it's not a required practice, and at some point the sheer size plays a role.
A study hall in which other students were reading, texting, playing games etc. And as for their singing...the article clearly states they went away from the other students to keep from being bothered or from bothering anyone else.
quote:
but it's not a required practice, and at some point the sheer size plays a role.
1. If you believe this, then you do not understand Christianity. Corporal worship, meeting together, worshiping God, reading the Bible, Praying are all required of Christians. (Doesn't mean all Christians do it. But I would be willing all Muslims do not pray 5 times a day.) Sheer numbers do not mean a school sponsors something. If 100s of students began rioting in the school, would you say that is a school sanctioned/sponsored event?
quote:
I'm saying that when it became that size, it became something that was not a private display, but a very public display.
Again. They went to a separate area of the school. 10 students getting up in the middle of class to pray would be a pretty public display, wouldn't you think? I mean, how many students are there in a typical classroom these days?
quote:
Maybe the school was wrong, but it's not the same as a required religious practice. Besides, you're comparing one school to another, as if this means all schools are banning Christians and allowing Muslims to pray.
It is more common that what you are thinking. Would you like for me to find more links to Muslims being able to pray with full school knowledge and acceptance?
Posted on 3/20/17 at 12:13 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
Freedom of Religion means Freedom of Christianity to a lot of people here in Texas
Yep, they are the exact opposite of liberals.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 12:15 pm to DawgsLife
Muslim prayer rooms public schools
Maryland
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/muslim-students-pray-school-maryland_n_2583118.html
Michigan (2-3 cities)
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/06/06/muslim-group-cair-has-hijacked-michigan-school-system-74914
Minnesota
https://theextract.net/2016/03/25/minnesota-district-restores-prayer-to-public-school-but-only-for-muslim-students/
New York
https://rense.com/general17/NYCoksprayer.htm
And it goes on. here is what is happening in the UK after accomodating Muslims there:
Muslims in some other nations have made increasingly insistent and taxing demands on public schools after lesser demands have been met. In the United Kingdom, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) released a 72-page document in 2007 calling for state schools to "remove unnecessary barriers to full participation" for Muslim students in primary and secondary school.
Besides footbaths and prayer rooms, the document asks that schools provide halal food, allow for Muslim traditional dress in the uniform policy, offer Arabic instruction for Muslim students, and eliminate all coeducational sports. MCB would also like schools to allow Muslim students to opt out of activities and curriculum requirements involving music, dance, or drama. Schools should avoid scheduling sex education lessons during Ramadan, as well as swimming lessons (because if students swallow water in the pool they will break their Ramadan fast).
https://eagleforum.org/educate/2008/feb08/muslim-students.html
Maryland
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/muslim-students-pray-school-maryland_n_2583118.html
Michigan (2-3 cities)
https://www.bizpacreview.com/2013/06/06/muslim-group-cair-has-hijacked-michigan-school-system-74914
Minnesota
https://theextract.net/2016/03/25/minnesota-district-restores-prayer-to-public-school-but-only-for-muslim-students/
New York
https://rense.com/general17/NYCoksprayer.htm
And it goes on. here is what is happening in the UK after accomodating Muslims there:
Muslims in some other nations have made increasingly insistent and taxing demands on public schools after lesser demands have been met. In the United Kingdom, the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) released a 72-page document in 2007 calling for state schools to "remove unnecessary barriers to full participation" for Muslim students in primary and secondary school.
Besides footbaths and prayer rooms, the document asks that schools provide halal food, allow for Muslim traditional dress in the uniform policy, offer Arabic instruction for Muslim students, and eliminate all coeducational sports. MCB would also like schools to allow Muslim students to opt out of activities and curriculum requirements involving music, dance, or drama. Schools should avoid scheduling sex education lessons during Ramadan, as well as swimming lessons (because if students swallow water in the pool they will break their Ramadan fast).
https://eagleforum.org/educate/2008/feb08/muslim-students.html
Posted on 3/20/17 at 12:17 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Apparently they don't buy your argument that it appears to be school sponsored when it grows to be a large number of people.
I was just saying that I understood the schools concerns, when it becomes something that is so pervasive that even those who don't participate are exposed to it. I'm not saying they're right, but that is vastly different than a private room to pray.
But that is just the thing. they are not exposed to it. they go to another part of the school and found an isolated location. They don't want to bother others and they don't want to be bothered by others.
The Muslims are getting up in the middle of class. Are you saying the students that are not participating are not being exposed to that? It's in all the newspapers and on the internet. I suspect the students know what is going on.
This post was edited on 3/20/17 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 3/20/17 at 12:27 pm to DawgsLife
quote:It's not like there are a lot of places to hold 90 students. That's probably why it was first OK, and then they stopped it. When you get that many students in a place at one time, the school probably has to provide supervision too.
But that is just the thing. they are not exposed to it. they go to another part of the school and found an isolated location
But even if you think the school erred, then you should still think some other school should allow students a private place to accommodate their religious practices.
quote:They aren't exposed to the practice itself, just like when kids go the restroom, they aren't exposed to the students actually using it.
Are you saying the students that are not participating are not being exposed to that?
Posted on 3/20/17 at 12:39 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:Moral standards are different. My moral standard is based on a Biblical worldview where doing good to others is promoted. By my standard, there is moral degradation in our culture.
That's your opinion.
quote:There are always going to be people that believe the government should be involved in doing more than they should in society. My statement was in regards to the perceived need of government to be more involved as a social safety net as the role of supporting the needy is removed from the citizenry (through charities and churches).
This was happening long before Christianity began its decline.
quote:Christians are sinners, too. Those who hate Christ are looking to point out the sins of Christians to justify their own lack of faith. However, regardless of Christians being sinners, they still do tend to take care of others and view themselves more as servants which is not the general attitude of the secular world.
Christians can't even be bothered to do this, yet you expect others to do it?
quote:That's my point so thank you for agreeing. As people reject the moral authority of God, they substitute their own. Apparently we disagree with the motivations of the godless, but my observation is that people want to be free to do whatever makes themselves happy (what makes them feel good), which is a very selfish motivation and the opposite of the Christian worldview. I believe this is why we have a growing number of people demanding the right to not be offended.
Not true. Many just don't want your imaginary authority dictating how they live their lives.
quote:Still a negative. Obviously we aren't going to agree on what is "good" and what is "bad" for society based on our competing worldviews. I believe what we have seen in the last century is a rejection of the authority of God and His revealed will and an embrace of the autonomy of man who refuses to bend the knee to God. This is nothing new as the Bible speaks to this very thing from 2,000 years ago. The result, though, is increased selfishness in society and approval of activities that are destructive to individuals as well as society as a whole in the name of autonomy.
Still a positive. You've posted nothing to refute that.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 12:45 pm to RedRifle
Well dickhead, you COMPLETELY misrepresented that story.
He is concerned that the area is exclusively for Muslims. You wouldn't want a govt entity to set one religion above the others would you?
He is concerned that the area is exclusively for Muslims. You wouldn't want a govt entity to set one religion above the others would you?
Posted on 3/20/17 at 12:50 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Moral standards are different.
So? Medical standards are different. That doesn't mean we've seen degradation.
quote:
My moral standard is based on a Biblical worldview where doing good to others is promoted.
Well, it's a cherry-picked worldview that happens to align to what is currently acceptable in society.
quote:
By my standard, there is moral degradation in our culture.
Right. So your opinion.
quote:
There are always going to be people that believe the government should be involved in doing more than they should in society. My statement was in regards to the perceived need of government to be more involved as a social safety net as the role of supporting the needy is removed from the citizenry (through charities and churches).
Cool, and that was still happening long before the decline of Christianity. It's an irrelevant point.
quote:
Those who hate Christ are looking to point out the sins of Christians to justify their own lack of faith.
It isn't about justification, and there's none necessary.
quote:
which is not the general attitude of the secular world
That's complete bullshite. Many secularists are also humnanists, who I'd argue care much more about taking care of people than many Christians.
quote:
As people reject the moral authority of God, they substitute their own.
Incorrect. We inject what we as a society find acceptable based on knowledge, experience, goals, etc.
quote:
selfish motivation
This is a large part of your postion and your ideas. You operate under the assumption that anything done without your god as a driver is done for purely selfish reasons. Pretending that secularists don't care about anyone but themselves is ignorant.
quote:
Still a negative.
Nah, it's still a positive. You don't think it's a positive, but that's not really important here.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 12:53 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
When you get that many students in a place at one time, the school probably has to provide supervision too.
But they allow 10 to go privately?
quote:
But even if you think the school erred, then you should still think some other school should allow students a private place to accommodate their religious practices.
Well, certainly if you allow Muslims to meet and pray, then you should allow Christians, right?
quote:
Are you saying the students that are not participating are not being exposed to that?
They aren't exposed to the practice itself, just like when kids go the restroom, they aren't exposed to the students actually using it.
And in the case of the 90 Christians....the students were not exposed to that practice, either. Soooooo...what was your point?
Posted on 3/20/17 at 1:25 pm to DawgsLife
quote:I don't know what they do. But 90 students 3 or 4 times a class size. 10 could meet in a conference room by the office and they, 90 would need a gym or auditorium, etc.
But they allow 10 to go privately?
quote:They aren't "meeting." They are praying individually; they don't have to be anywhere near one another.
Well, certainly if you allow Muslims to meet and pray, then you should allow Christians, right?
quote:My point was that the school obviously took issue after it had reached a certain size. Religion aside, 90 high schoolers in one place at one time, would require school signicantly more school resources (supervision, space), that I could see a school having concerns ABOUT any meeting that size for any reason.
And in the case of the 90 Christians....the students were not exposed to that practice, either. Soooooo...what was your point?
I don't care one way is the other, but I could see the school deciding it was too big. Either way, I don't see why you have a problem with the Muslims praying, since you've provided no evidence that a Christian wouldn't be afforded the same reasonable accommodation at that school.
You had to pull any example of a different school, in a different state, banning a 90 group meeting (which was later allowed). They are neither the same substantively, nor are they the same school to make a precise comparison.
And besides, the school eventually allowed it, so then the story is even less relevant. So then you should be supportive of both schools allowing their practices.
This post was edited on 3/20/17 at 1:28 pm
Posted on 3/20/17 at 1:45 pm to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:I'm not talking about medicine. Morality is a standard of what is good vs. what is bad. My point here was to acknowledge that you probably won't see moral degradation if your moral code is diametrically opposed to mine. In fact, you probably see morality as improving.
So? Medical standards are different. That doesn't mean we've seen degradation
quote:It's not cherry-picked at all. My worldview is based on Biblical truths that I believe are universal. The moral law of God doesn't change.
Well, it's a cherry-picked worldview that happens to align to what is currently acceptable in society.
What is currently acceptable in society is changing all the time, which is the basis for my original statement about the degradation of morality in society. Broken homes, single parents, STDs, lives of idleness caused by substance abuse, and even a general lack of common goodness to others are just a few examples of the degradation of morality in society as these things are now expected and in some cases even promoted as viable ways to live life. The "faith in humanity restored" memes are very telling that something that would be expected of everyone a hundred years ago is not lauded as a unique example today.
quote:Yes, just like your opinion that there is no moral degradation in society.
Right. So your opinion.
quote:Apparently I'm not communicating this effectively as you still don't get it.
Cool, and that was still happening long before the decline of Christianity. It's an irrelevant point
As the Christian ethic of selflessness and provision for the needy decreases, the need (or perceived need) of government intervention increases. It's not irrelevant at all when I said government increases as Christianity decreases. When you don't have individuals who are self-motivated (by their faith) to help others, you get people crying for the government to step in and do it.
quote:It is. People who see Christ's perfect obedience to the law of God will see their own sinfulness by comparison. People don't like that, so they reject Christ to make themselves feel better. The justification is necessary since the alternative is living with the understanding that you don't measure up to God's righteousness.
It isn't about justification, and there's none necessary.
quote:The secularist has no objective reasoning for being "good" to humanity while the Christian does. I'd argue that while there are many secularists who are humanists, they are inconsistent with their own worldview. Likewise, the professing Christian who does not care about humanity is also inconsistent with his professed worldview. Also note that I said "general attitude", and not "exclusive attitude".
That's complete bull shite. Many secularists are also humnanists, who I'd argue care much more about taking care of people than many Christians.
quote:Incorrect. Look at this change in society towards transgenderism which flies in the face of scientific understanding of humanity; the liberal notion of acceptance of Muslims who want to convert or kill them (the liberals); the rejection of the Christian worldview that, as a moral code, is objectively more positive for humanity than that of secular humanism, yet is less palatable.
Incorrect. We inject what we as a society find acceptable based on knowledge, experience, goals, etc.
What we find more and more of in our society is people wanting to be free to do what they want; what makes them feel good. "Don't judge" should probably be the new mantra, except it is applied liberally to everyone but Christians who dare challenge their notion of what should be morally acceptable.
As the Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun. The same things the secularists are fighting for today have existed for thousands of years prior in civilizations all around the world.
quote:There is no objective basis for doing anything at all for a secularist. The only thing that comes closest is the notion of putting one's own self interest ahead of all others. While it's possible to act in the interest of others ahead of yourself, there is no objective reason to do so, and that leads to people being naturally selfish.
This is a large part of your postion and your ideas. You operate under the assumption that anything done without your god as a driver is done for purely selfish reasons. Pretending that secularists don't care about anyone but themselves is ignorant.
quote:Ditto. Like I said, our differing worldviews will prevent us from agreeing what is good or bad (positive or negative).
Nah, it's still a positive. You don't think it's a positive, but that's not really important here.
I believe increasing rejection of Christianity is negatively impacting most if not all areas of our culture, from the family unit, to the concept of basic biology in male and female, to concepts of beauty and love, to notions of property ownership and theft. There is a lot of "bad" in this world that is brought about by the rejection of the Christian worldview.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 2:51 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Either way, I don't see why you have a problem with the Muslims praying, since you've provided no evidence that a Christian wouldn't be afforded the same reasonable accommodation at that school.
Fact: The room is available for 30 minutes.
Proof:
quote:
The prayer room is actually a classroom that is used during a teacher's conference period. Students are allowed to go in there for 30 minutes since it is not being used for instruction during that time, Moore said.
LINK
Fact: The Muslims perform the call to prayer, followed by 15 minutes of prayer (at least 20 minutes of the 30 minutes).
Proof:
quote:
It’s a Friday afternoon, a little after 2, at Liberty High School. Student Zaki Sayyid recites the Islamic call to prayer. He and 10 other Muslim students are inside a classroom, on their knees facing east. Girls wear hijabs. Everyone’s taken off their shoes. They spend the next 15 minutes in prayer. This isn’t a common scene at most schools. But at Liberty, it happens every Friday.
LINK
Fact: Principal is intimating that all religions are being accommodated during that 30 minutes by stating that "it's not just Muslims" during that 30 minutes.
Fact: Haven't seen any reference to any non-Muslim religious observance during that 30-minute time frame (edit) other than silent prayer by other groups during the Muslims' taking center stage (not good enough in my book, what if someone Baptist actually wanted to speak out loud?).
Logical conclusion: White, non-religious suburban kids who think it's "neat" to watch Muslims pray exclusively is being considered religious diversity (or non-Muslims are being forced into silent prayer while the Muslims wail).
Not good enough.
This post was edited on 3/20/17 at 3:04 pm
Posted on 3/20/17 at 3:03 pm to texashorn
quote:I wouldn't have used it, even if it was available. Even when I was a believer, I prayed on my own accord in my own time; that's not unique. Regardless what you think about Islam, one of their basic prayer practices is to pray at very precise times.
Haven't seen any reference to any non-Muslim religious observance during that 30- minute time frame.
I was getting Chinese food the other day, and a guy pulled his mat out of the car and prayed in the parking lot by his car. Luckily, I never had to go a thing like that.
quote:OK.
White, non-religious suburban kids who think it's "neat" to watch Muslims pray exclusively is being considered religious diversity.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 3:06 pm to buckeye_vol
You are dodging the issue that 30 minutes, with at least 20 of those minutes being Muslims wailing out loud, with other denominations unable to speak, even if they chose to (presumably only silent prayer), is considered religious diversity and a proper accommodation by the principal.
"Hey, you Baptists sit silently in the corner, do not come in front of the room and (please) do not bring any Bibles or pictures of Jesus Christ in the room or we'll have an explosive situation."
"Hey, you blacks sit in the theater balcony, be very, very quiet, don't dress flashy or you'll get whipped by whites."
"Hey, you Baptists sit silently in the corner, do not come in front of the room and (please) do not bring any Bibles or pictures of Jesus Christ in the room or we'll have an explosive situation."
"Hey, you blacks sit in the theater balcony, be very, very quiet, don't dress flashy or you'll get whipped by whites."
This post was edited on 3/20/17 at 3:14 pm
Posted on 3/20/17 at 3:39 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
I'm not talking about medicine.
So what? It's sufficient to highlight that your point on moral standards was irrelevant.
quote:
In fact, you probably see morality as improving.
I don't see morality as a quantifiable numerical value or an eternal absolute. It's a subjective concept that can and does change, like religion.
quote:
It's not cherry-picked at all.
Yes it is.
quote:
The moral law of God doesn't change.
It does, and it has.
quote:
Broken homes, single parents, STDs, lives of idleness caused by substance abuse, and even a general lack of common goodness to others
None of this is relevant.
quote:
Yes, just like your opinion that there is no moral degradation in society.
I never gave such an opinion.
quote:
Apparently I'm not communicating this effectively as you still don't get it.
Ah, the old standby.
No, I get it. It's still irrelevant.
quote:
It is. People who see Christ's perfect obedience to the law of God will see their own sinfulness by comparison. People don't like that, so they reject Christ to make themselves feel better. The justification is necessary since the alternative is living with the understanding that you don't measure up to God's righteousness.
What a bunch of self-centered bullshite.
quote:
The secularist has no objective reasoning for being "good" to humanity while the Christian does.
Wrong and wrong.
quote:
I believe
Not sure I've made it clear enough. I don't care what you believe.
quote:
There is a lot of "bad" in this world that is brought about by the rejection of the Christian worldview.
Nope. There's a lot of "bad" in this world that is brought about by "bad" people. You choose religion to explain that because it makes sense to you. That's fine, but that doesn't mean it's the correct answer.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 3:45 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
I wouldn't have used it, even if it was available. Even when I was a believer, I prayed on my own accord in my own time; that's not unique.
But shouldn't those believers that do care to be allowed to? Dude. You arguing that Muslims should be given special time, space to practice their religion, and Christians should not be given the same right.
Lets take a look at your assertion that they are "required" to pray at certain times, though.
LINK
Fajr (pre-dawn): This prayer starts off the day with the remembrance of God; it is performed before sunrise.
Dhuhr (noon): After the day's work has begun, one breaks shortly after noon to again remember God and seek His guidance.
'Asr (afternoon): In the late afternoon, people are usually busy wrapping up the day's work, getting kids home from school, etc. It is an important time to take a few minutes to remember God and the greater meaning of our lives.
Maghrib (sunset): Just after the sun goes down, Muslims remember God again as the day begins to come to a close.
'Isha (evening): Before retiring for the night, Muslims again take the time to remember God's presence, guidance, mercy, and forgiveness.
Only one of these fall in the school hours. Noon. That could easily be taken care of by allowing the Muslims to have their lunch hour at Noon. I mean...that is when the school expected the Christians to pray right? During their lunch period?
I don't understand why you fight so hard to protect the Muslims rights to practice their religion and fight so hard to prevent the Christians from doing the same.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 3:54 pm to DawgsLife
quote:I've argued they both deserve the same accommodation, no more or less. I've stated this numerous times. So stop trying to misrepresent what I said.
You arguing that Muslims should be given special time, space to practice their religion, and Christians should not be given the same right.
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