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Started By
Message
re: Texas AG sued to keep a Bible quote in school. Now he’s troubled by Muslim prayers.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 10:35 am to DawgsLife
Posted on 3/20/17 at 10:35 am to DawgsLife
quote:
but they cannot allow Christians to meet after school hours on school grounds because of separation of church and state
I'm not saying your wrong, but where is this happening at? I've seen in mentioned a couple times in this thread.
2
Posted on 3/20/17 at 10:41 am to Parmen
quote:
If you're willing to make accommodations for a Christian, then make sure to provide them for a Muslim, a Scientologist, etc. The First Amendment is not just for Christians.
Yeah. Well, see that's the thing. they are making exceptions for the Muslims while not making them for the Christians. Therein lies the problem. Christians have been told how evil religion is at school, then the schools allow them to leave classrooms during the school day to and give them rooms to pray in.
quote:
Also, realize Muslims have been in America since the colonial era. Thomas Jefferson kept a copy of the Qu'ran in his library.
You do realize that having a copy of Koran does not make you a Muslim any more than having a copy of the Bible makes you a Christian, right?
So, you are one to take quotes from individuals and set those quotes up as things we must live and die by?
Fine. Consider these, then.
George Washington
1st U.S. President
"While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian."
Oh. And by the way...this is a quote by that same John Adams you want to convince us was against Christianity.
"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite, and these Principles only could be intended by them in their address, or by me in my answer. And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: And the general Principles of English and American Liberty, in which all those young Men United, and which had United all Parties in America, in Majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her Independence.
I can go on and on with quotes from Founding Fathers that say they supported Christianity just like you can find some that say they do not, so don't come on here trying to prove your point with quotes from some people. I will show you as many (Some from the same people you quote) that contradict your position.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 10:46 am to mindbreaker
quote:
I'm not saying your wrong, but where is this happening at? I've seen in mentioned a couple times in this thread.
No problem. I have no problem with people asking me to prove what I am saying. here is a link with one school that tried to do this. They were overturned, then tired to do the exact same thing the next year.
LINK
Here is a link where it was taken to court and the courts upheld the clubs right to meet on school grounds. Don't get me wrong...these are being overturned and clubs are now being allowed, however, the point is they are having to take the schools and school systems to court for this. meanwhile, Muslims are being given rooms to pray during school hours with no questions.
In fact, the issue (Christian Clubs on school grounds AFTER school hours) was fought so vehemently it was brought all the way to the Supreme Court.
This post was edited on 3/20/17 at 10:48 am
Posted on 3/20/17 at 10:49 am to DawgsLife
Posted on 3/20/17 at 10:54 am to mindbreaker
Here is a story about how Christian Clubs can meet AFTER HOURS...
In a 6-3 decision that lowered the figurative wall of separation between church and state, the justices said a New York public school district must let the Good News Club hold after-school meetings for grade-school children to pray and study the Bible.
LINK
Kind of makes me wonder why Muslims can leave class and use classrooms to pray, but Christians apparently have to wait until after school.
In a 6-3 decision that lowered the figurative wall of separation between church and state, the justices said a New York public school district must let the Good News Club hold after-school meetings for grade-school children to pray and study the Bible.
LINK
Kind of makes me wonder why Muslims can leave class and use classrooms to pray, but Christians apparently have to wait until after school.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 10:55 am to DawgsLife
Yeah I'm not on board with that either. I'm not Christian or Muslim. But if they are praying on their own free time or forming clubs without any school involvement go for it.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 10:57 am to DisplacedBuckeye
quote:No it's not. What it is being replaced with is moral degradation and increased government. If people took care of each other as Christians are supposed to, and if people stopped acting according to their own selfish and often destructive desires, the country would be better off.
That is an absolute positive.
Instead, people want to do anything that makes them feel good and that often results in their own destruction and ruin as well as the destruction and ruin of others, leading the government to step in because people aren't acting as they should towards each other.
It's an absolute negative.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 10:59 am to DawgsLife
quote:But you're using an apples and oranges comparison. Clubs aren't the same as indivduals praying on their own accord.
Yeah. Well, see that's the thing. they are making exceptions for the Muslims while not making them for the Christians.
quote:What?
Christians have been told how evil religion is at school
quote:It doesn't matter though.
I can go on and on with quotes from Founding Fathers that say they supported Christianity just like you can find some that say they do not
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:00 am to Roger Klarvin
quote:...and calls it liberalism on the PoliBoard.
It's why the religious right poisons true conservatism
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:00 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
Oh. Yeah. Good point. 10 students get up and leave the room every day and the other students have no way of knowing why, right? Dude. Your problem is secrecy?
I'm not arguing secrecy; I'm arguing the privacy, and the practicality of the expression within a setting. Going to a private room to pray, is a private display as opposed to doing it in the classroom.
My point is...they will not allow a Christian Club on a school campus because of separation of church and state, yet they allow the Muslims to get up in the middle of class to go pray in one of their classrooms. Do you honestly believe that if a group of Christians wanted to leave class every day to meet and pray the schools/government would allow it?
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:02 am to DawgsLife
quote:You keep comparison an organization and an organized meeting with indivduals; they are not the same.
Kind of makes me wonder why Muslims can leave class and use classrooms to pray, but Christians apparently have to wait until after school.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:05 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
But you're using an apples and oranges comparison. Clubs aren't the same as indivduals praying on their own accord.
So. It is your argument that the schools would allow Christians to walk out of class every day to pray of their own accord? Seriously?
LINK /
quote:
Christians have been told how evil religion is at school
What?
I admit it. Hyperbole.
quote:
It doesn't matter though.
I know. I was responding to the guy that wanted to "prove" the Founding Fathers were against Christianity.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:07 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
You keep comparison an organization and an organized meeting with indivduals; they are not the same.
What difference does it make. It is all based on separation of church and state. Mind telling me how Muslims being allowed to walk out of class to pray every single day and given a classroom to do so is separation of church and state?
Ok. let's compare apples to apples, then.
LINK /
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:20 am to DawgsLife
quote:Well one is required practice of an individual, the other is a non-required meeting of an organization.
What difference does it make
quote:It's still not apples to apples. When it became a group of 90 students, it could be considered school sponsored. They weren't just participating in required religious practice, they were hold a group organized religious meeting.
Ok. let's compare apples to apples, then
And the lawsuit was eventually dropped. Christian teen in Colorado drops school prayer lawsuitAnd here is the pertinent difference you keep ignoring:
quote:When it became a large event, then it became more of a school sponsored event. Although, I would have liked to see a ruling.
Supreme Court rulings over the years have generally barred public school sponsored prayer as an “establishment of religion” prohibited by the First Amendment, though not voluntary religious activities by students.
Either way, it's not the same as students praying as part of a required religious practice.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:23 am to RedRifle
If it's just students on their own doing, leave them the frick alone. Christian or Muslim, or what have you, as long as they aren't sacrificing chickens or something, just let them be.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:29 am to ShortyRob
quote:
people have totally fricked up "tolerance" into meaning "I shouldn't have to see shite I don't like"........which is really the fricking precise opposite of tolerance.
I rarely agree with you, but you are dead right about this. Whoever dreamed up this fricked up notion of a right not to be offended needs to "intolerated".
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:30 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
Well one is required practice of an individual, the other is a non-required meeting of an organization.
So, if a student from Haiti that practices VooDoo, says he required to sacrifice a chicken, there would be no problem with the school providing that student a rood to do so?
quote:
It's still not apples to apples. When it became a group of 90 students, it could be considered school sponsored. They weren't just participating in required religious practice, they were hold a group organized religious meeting.
It was their free time! You are just being obtuse, now. It was fre time, that the students decided they wanted to pray.
Let me understand this....10 Muslims can get up and go pray every day and that is ok. 90 Christians want to spend their free time to pray and that is not ok?
I'm speechless.
quote:
though not voluntary religious activities by students.
And how is the 90 students wanting to pray during their free time not a voluntary religious activity?
quote:
When it became a large event, then it became more of a school sponsored event.
So, in your opinion, what is the cutoff? Obviously not 10. So, if a school wants the chess club and only 10 students show up they cannot have the chess club because 10 is not enough students for it to be considered a school sponsored activity?
Dude. You are all over the place. The article plainly says that the students. of their own volition decided to spend their free time praying. the school did not encourage it. They discouraged it. So, your assertion that it was a school sponsored activity just doesn't hold water.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:34 am to FooManChoo
quote:
moral degradation
That's your opinion.
quote:
increased government
This was happening long before Christianity began its decline.
quote:
If people took care of each other as Christians are supposed to, and if people stopped acting according to their own selfish and often destructive desires, the country would be better off.
Christians can't even be bothered to do this, yet you expect others to do it?
quote:
Instead, people want to do anything that makes them feel good
Not true. Many just don't want your imaginary authority dictating how they live their lives.
quote:
It's an absolute negative.
Still a positive. You've posted nothing to refute that.
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:37 am to buckeye_vol
quote:
Either way, it's not the same as students praying as part of a required religious practice.
One more example of your double standard.
Christians are instructed to pray and to witness. How would you feel if Christians decided to pray in the middle of class or to witness to other students in the middle of class? Are you saying we should allow Muslims to practice their religion at school, but it is unacceptable for Christians to practice their religion? or Wiccans? VooDoo? Mormons? Where are you going to draw the line?
Posted on 3/20/17 at 11:47 am to DawgsLife
quote:No but in the Tinker case (free speech), SCOTUS has ruled that it can't prohibit unless it:
So, if a student from Haiti that practices VooDoo, says he required to sacrifice a chicken, there would be no problem with the school providing that student a rood to do so?
quote:Sacrificing a chicken would clearly be inappropriate.
materially and substantially interfere[d] with the requirements of appropriate discipline in the operation of the school
quote:It was their STUDY hall, but they weren't just praying, they were singing songs, etc. You could argue that should be acceptable (should have kept the lawsuit going), but it's not a required practice, and at some point the sheer size plays a role.
It was their free time! You are just being obtuse, now. It was fre time, that the students decided they wanted to pray.
quote:I'm saying that when it became that size, it became something that was not a private display, but a very public display.
Dude. You are all over the place. The article plainly says that the students. of their own volition decided to spend their free time praying. the school did not encourage it. They discouraged it. So, your assertion that it was a school sponsored activity just doesn't hold water.
Maybe the school was wrong, but it's not the same as a required religious practice. Besides, you're comparing one school to another, as if this means all schools are banning Christians and allowing Muslims to pray.
So even if the school in Colorado erred, that doesn't somehow mean the school in Texas with the Muslims should err as well, and probably more egregiously.
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