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Started By
Message
re: student loans for degrees in art, theatre, english, etc.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 8:22 am to SpidermanTUba
Posted on 7/9/14 at 8:22 am to SpidermanTUba
SO. MUCH. AGREEMENT. WITH. TUBA. The other day I agreed with Rex. This is crazy.
Seriously, I work in higher education. The number of seniors graduating with > $50k in debt is staggering. And a lot of them have degrees in things that they won't ever see a 50k salary. Most students use the student loan program as a de facto welfare (and some are getting real welfare on top of it).
The colleges are addicted to the money coming from student loans, so they aren't going to step up, but here's my simple plan.
Up the Pell Grant program from a max of $5500 to a amax of $7500. This will cover almost 90% of state school's in-state tuition rate for students with a FAFSA EFC of 0.
The FedGov is about to start reporting salary data (in 2016) for schools/majors. Install a simple formula. You have to report your major on your FAFSA and you are entitled to take out a max of 1x the average 5 year salary of your major. Engineering degree going to get you 60k, you can take out 60k in loan and pay it back over 10 years. Theatre degree going to get you 15k at Starbucks, that's the most you can take out.
Outside of medicine and law, my experience says that the degrees that have the biggest loan amounts are arts, sociology and general business (these are the people just going back to school to go back to school - they don't care about the major).
Seriously, I work in higher education. The number of seniors graduating with > $50k in debt is staggering. And a lot of them have degrees in things that they won't ever see a 50k salary. Most students use the student loan program as a de facto welfare (and some are getting real welfare on top of it).
The colleges are addicted to the money coming from student loans, so they aren't going to step up, but here's my simple plan.
Up the Pell Grant program from a max of $5500 to a amax of $7500. This will cover almost 90% of state school's in-state tuition rate for students with a FAFSA EFC of 0.
The FedGov is about to start reporting salary data (in 2016) for schools/majors. Install a simple formula. You have to report your major on your FAFSA and you are entitled to take out a max of 1x the average 5 year salary of your major. Engineering degree going to get you 60k, you can take out 60k in loan and pay it back over 10 years. Theatre degree going to get you 15k at Starbucks, that's the most you can take out.
Outside of medicine and law, my experience says that the degrees that have the biggest loan amounts are arts, sociology and general business (these are the people just going back to school to go back to school - they don't care about the major).
This post was edited on 7/9/14 at 8:23 am
2
Posted on 7/9/14 at 8:25 am to anc
Another that might help is making art majors wait a couple years after high school before getting loans. After living in the real world a bit they might change their mind on what they wanna major in
Posted on 7/9/14 at 8:25 am to Patrick O Rly
quote:
The government should have never started backing student loans. They took the risk out of lending, and now you've got a bunch of people in college that have no business being there, and tuition has been hyper-inflated to boot.
This. Student loans should not have ever been federally insured. This to me is the most obvious example of the dangers of Corporatism.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 8:37 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
federal student loans for degrees in art, theatre, english, etc.
Seriously dudes - this is coming from a liberal -
Want federal student loans for an art related degree unlikely to get you an actual job ?
You got till you're 25 - or 4 years max - whichever happens first. After that get your own loans.
This the wrong way to go about. Rather than changing the loan structure to encourage a more limited workforce, better to encourage those majors to adjust to job trends through program reform. Granted that's tough withe theater and the arts, but the social sciences can do it easily.
quote:
There's got to be some reasonable limit. If you want to use student loans to make a career change late in life - you should be reasonably restricted in your choice of major.
This is the antithesis of what college is. It isn't for career training or career changing. Businesses should take that risk back, and focus on creating flexible, open options through all of the "new" forms of education, like MOOCs, to train employees. If they do that, they can take the History major who has a knack for analyzing the past, both data driven and narrative driven, and turn them into a unique employee.
Everyone screwed the pooch on the purpose of college over the last 20 years because this
quote:
The government should have never started backing student loans. They took the risk out of lending, and now you've got a bunch of people in college that have no business being there, and tuition has been hyper-inflated to boot.
Is true. This turned into "workforce production," rather than "knowledge production."
Posted on 7/9/14 at 8:46 am to SpidermanTUba
What about student loans to attend cosmetology school? The country is full of cosmetology schools that have student aid departments to help prospective students get enrolled. The schools don't care if the students drop out after that, in fact some actually hope they do, since the tuition and fees are paid up front and largely nonrefundable. The earnings potential for graduates is rather limited.
This applies to other specialty schools as well. Do you think the people who attend culinary schools all go on to have successful careers in the food service industry?
This applies to other specialty schools as well. Do you think the people who attend culinary schools all go on to have successful careers in the food service industry?
Posted on 7/9/14 at 8:48 am to SpidermanTUba
A common sense thread? Who are you and what have you done with Spiderman Tuba?
This post was edited on 7/9/14 at 8:49 am
Posted on 7/9/14 at 8:48 am to SpidermanTUba
Posted on 7/9/14 at 9:13 am to DelU249
I read about some experiment where a college didn't charge tuition, but they were entitled to some portion of your earnings for X number of years (can't remember how long).
I like that because it aligns the incentives of the college with the student.
Have no idea if that panned out or if it was ever really implemented.
I like that because it aligns the incentives of the college with the student.
Have no idea if that panned out or if it was ever really implemented.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 9:15 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
SpidermanTUba
There is hope for you yet. Kudos good sir. Kudos indeed.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 9:15 am to SpidermanTUba
Just an FYI: people who live to write, act, paint, draw don't do it for money. The act of creating fills them in ways money can't. And laugh if you wish, but if one does it just proves to me they don't have a clue. And never will. Plus, many don't have to take out loans to go to grad school. You even get a stipend. I should know.
This'll prob piss off IB Freeman.
And for the record. I act/teach/direct in the Nola area and have to turn down offers bc I'm working so much. So the claim that these degrees are worthless are bullshite.
This'll prob piss off IB Freeman.
And for the record. I act/teach/direct in the Nola area and have to turn down offers bc I'm working so much. So the claim that these degrees are worthless are bullshite.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 9:18 am to ChicagoTiger
quote:
And for the record. I act/teach/direct in the Nola area and have to turn down offers bc I'm working so much. So the claim that these degrees are worthless are bullshite.
They're totally worthless
Posted on 7/9/14 at 9:21 am to SpidermanTUba
I'd rather restrict it to traditional colleges and eliminate the fly by night cosmetology truck driving schools.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 9:29 am to HailHailtoMichigan!
quote:
make college tuition free through a tax.
Frick that.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 9:29 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
I'd rather restrict it to traditional colleges and eliminate the fly by night cosmetology truck driving schools.
Bingo, you can fix a lot of the problem by killing for-profit schools that are worthless.
A degree from Southern University is much better than the same degree from Strayer or Kaplan. And that's saying a lot.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 9:43 am to Poodlebrain
quote:
What about student loans to attend cosmetology school? The country is full of cosmetology schools that have student aid departments to help prospective students get enrolled. The schools don't care if the students drop out after that, in fact some actually hope they do, since the tuition and fees are paid up front and largely nonrefundable. The earnings potential for graduates is rather limited.
My SO's daughter is in cosmetology school and mentioned how she'll probably have to keep her current job at a restaurant to pay off her loans IN ADDITION TO whatever job she gets after school in her field.
She actually enjoys her classes and her attendance record is over 100% (she leaves the house early to avoid traffic and often ends up at school 30 minutes early, which counts toward her attendance rate).
Posted on 7/9/14 at 9:52 am to ChicagoTiger
quote:
Just an FYI: people who live to write, act, paint, draw don't do it for money. The act of creating fills them in ways money can't. And laugh if you wish, but if one does it just proves to me they don't have a clue. And never will. Plus, many don't have to take out loans to go to grad school. You even get a stipend. I should know.
While I agree, it isn't only the people who live to do these things that get this degree. Although that's usually the start of it, or at least the driving force, these skills and this type of thinking can be extremely beneficial outside of the production of art itself. That's what people who agree with the OP don't get, or at least don't want to get.
Deeper government intrusion into the process of post-secondary education is dangerous. College is about exploration, freedom to study, finding purpose etc., not about inefficient government processes to create better worker bees. Government backed aid itself is the problem, more of it or more control of it isn't the solution.
And again, since this thread or a variation of it comes out every month, the premise to do this is based on the idea that only people with certain degrees can do certain types of jobs and that just isn't true.
This post was edited on 7/9/14 at 9:55 am
Posted on 7/9/14 at 10:00 am to ChicagoTiger
quote:
people who live to write, act, paint, draw don't do it for money.
we know. But we shouldn't have to subsidize your entertainment.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 10:20 am to Freauxzen
quote:
Freauxzen
I can't imagine agreeing more.
Posted on 7/9/14 at 10:32 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
SpidermanTUba
Imagine that!! A liberal advocating more government restrictions.
Let the government decide which degrees are worthy.
Let the government decide how much each degree is worth.
No need for personal responsibility, the all knowing nanny state will take care of you.
If someone is so stupid as to run up massive debt chasing a worthless degree, then let him pay it off like any other debt.
If someone is so stupid as to major in a field that has absolutely no real employment prospect, let them take responsibility for their decision.
Seriously Spidey is there no arena where you don't see government regulation as the controlling factor?
This post was edited on 7/9/14 at 1:18 pm
Posted on 7/9/14 at 10:33 am to BigJim
quote:
I read about some experiment where a college didn't charge tuition, but they were entitled to some portion of your earnings for X number of years (can't remember how long). I like that because it aligns the incentives of the college with the student.
Obviously the portion and how long are important details here, but F that! I'd rather pay back my loans and get my institution off my back forever.
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