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re: Let's think critically about illegal immigration...
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:40 pm to buckeye_vol
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:40 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
I prefer a hardworking illegal immigrant vs. a lazy citizen who spends his/her life leaching.
0
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:41 pm to ballscaster
quote:
I don't really care. If the presence of illegals in this country is what is keeping you from succeeding in this country, we don't really need you around.
So you're incapable of answering the question and resort to logical fallacies. Not at all surprised.
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:42 pm to DupontsCircle
quote:
state sanctioned execution of non-violent individuals should not be among the possibilities.
Why? Sometimes the way to stop a problem is by putting a bullet in it.
Well, frick, why stop with illegal aliens? Let's have the firing squad for every dumbass who texts while driving.
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:44 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
I don't see how they can't at least understand WHY people come here illegally.
Why is that a factor? Do you apply that same "empathy" for other criminal behavior? If not, why not?
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:44 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Even if people want them deported, I don't see how they can't at least understand WHY people come here illegally.
I'll reframe from calling you bleeding heart, because you seem to have a good heart. That's cool.
But at some point you need to understand that a country without law is lost. When, who and how many meeting your criteria would you allow? At what point do you think our country would just collapse from the burden? Is your approach ad infinitum?
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:45 pm to AZTarheeel
quote:I do think we have a unique history in that people from all across the world came here, because of the opportunity.
There is no other country in the world that allows illegal immigrants to stay,
I get the problems with those that do it illegally, but we are place that has flourished because we embraced singular goals of work-ethic and self-improvement yet also embraced the unique perspective and differences we all possessed.
quote:Well entitlements and government dependency, citizens and immigrants, are things that need addressed.
much less give them government benefits or driver's licenses.
In fact, this is why I found the wall discussion so frustrating. It didn't/doesn't address a major cause of illegal immigration (entitlements) that provides incentives for the leaching immigrants, but it is also a major issue domestically.
Take that away and then we would have fewer immigrants AND those that do immigrate are more likely to be the ones that want to work hard and make a better place for themselves (i.e., the values that made us great).
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:46 pm to cwill
quote:
They think they're mostly rapists and drug dealers, invaders.
Who are "they"....anyone who disagrees with your view?
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:51 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
A person who immigrates here illegally (technically a misdemeanor), but then proceeds to work-hard, to feed and shelter his family, and attempt to get his children a quality education, WHILE not committing any other crimes, then that person is vastly different than people who commit violent crimes, citizen or or not.
How do you determine one from the other? The punishment for most all other repeat criminals is jail. The "punishment" for criminal aliens is..."Just go home". You're right..one is not like the other.
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:51 pm to larry289
quote:Well I would argue that for the most part we have TOO many laws. So we are a long way from that.
But at some point you need to understand that a country without law is lost.
quote:Take away the entitlements, focus on those that commit the violent crimes, then the primary incentive to come here would be to actually work-hard and make a better life for themselves.
When, who and how many meeting your criteria would you allow?
quote:I want to address the burden. A wall, increased patrols etc., do not address this financial burden, that is also not exclusive to immigration.
At what point do you think our country would just collapse from the burden?
quote:Not focusing on the actual causes, and more specifically on the effects on WHO immigrates here, is more ad infinitum.
Is your approach ad infinitum?
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:53 pm to DupontsCircle
They can't drive because they can't read English and in Mexico there are No traffic laws or courtesies.
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:54 pm to Dale51
quote:Well our justice system would at least serve to identify the criminals. And eliminating the government entitlements that provides incentive for the leachers would diminish a lot as well.
How do you determine one from the other?
quote:And I would argue that deportation is ineffective if the causes aren't addressed since they can keep trying to comeback. AND if a person is a violent criminal, then deportation seems especially terrible since we are letting them free to continue those behaviors, and may just come back again.
The punishment for most all other repeat criminals is jail. The "punishment" for criminal aliens is..."Just go home".
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:59 pm to Dale51
quote:
Who are "they"....anyone who disagrees with your view?
People who lack any empathy for the illegals. Do we need a safe space for you? You seem triggered.
Posted on 11/15/16 at 2:59 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
And I would argue that deportation is ineffective if the causes aren't addressed since they can keep trying to comeback. AND if a person is a violent criminal, then deportation seems especially terrible since we are letting them free to continue those behaviors, and may just come back again.
Yet you find no merit in a wall?
Posted on 11/15/16 at 3:04 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Well our justice system would at least serve to identify the criminals. And I would argue that deportation is ineffective if the causes aren't addressed since they can keep trying to comeback.
How do you identify the criminal aliens (they are ALL criminals)..when even so much as asking legal status is not allowed?
If the laws..as the exist on the books today, not any new laws, the second offense for entering the country illegally is prison. Start by enforcing those laws.
Actually, I think a much easier solution is obvious. HEAVY fines for anyone employing criminal aliens and those providing false identification documents.
Don't you agree?
Posted on 11/15/16 at 3:08 pm to larry289
quote:At the expense of more productive policies, yes--especially given the inevitable cost and inefficiencies that will ensue when implemented by the government, regardless of who is in charge.
Yet you find no merit in a wall?
More importantly, a wall only addresses one method of immigration. And while I'm sure a physical barrier will diminish the effectiveness of an attempt, that will be somewhat offset by the fact many will attempt multiple times.
For the sake of argument, let's assume that prior to the wall, there is a 100% success rate for immigrants.
Then after we add the wall, let's assume there is only a 10% success rate; that would imply an effective strategy. Yet, since people can continue to try, then it is bound to be less effective than the 10% would indicate. So each successive attempt would decrease that probability, and since humans are adaptive and can learn, each successive attempt is likely to be more productive.
Posted on 11/15/16 at 3:09 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Not focusing on the actual causes,
The actual cause is not enforcing the laws, creating an incentive to break the law. Why is this difficult to understand? It would be no different with any other criminal offense. "Speeding is a violation....but we're never going to enforce it." "Shoplifting is a crime....but we're not going to enforce it". What would you think the end result of that would be..more or less of those crimes?
Posted on 11/15/16 at 3:11 pm to cwill
quote:
People who lack any empathy for the illegals. Do we need a safe space for you? You seem triggered.
You seem to be projecting. Your post actually proves my point. Anyone who doesn't share your...in this case..definition of "empathy", has no empathy at all.
Posted on 11/15/16 at 3:16 pm to Dale51
quote:You asked for a starting point. I said to start with those who commit violent crimes, or even just felonies.
How do you identify the criminal aliens
quote:And then what?
the second offense for entering the country illegally is prison.
Felons aside, we are going to spend > $30,000 of taxpayer to imprison them? What good is that? It surely has limited utility as it relates to the financial burden of illegal immigration.
quote:Fine. And then what? Many of those jobs are probably where they provide an economical benefit, and many of those are in rural places (e.g., farming) where enforcement would be costly as well.
. HEAVY fines for anyone employing criminal aliens and those providing false identification documents.
I'm more likely to support this, BUT I'm not sure that it will provide much benefit for us, and in many situations, would increase costs for the consumer.
Posted on 11/15/16 at 3:16 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
So each successive attempt would decrease that probability, and since humans are adaptive and can learn, each successive attempt is likely to be more productive.
That reasoning has some holes in it. You're assuming..it would seem..that the wall is just a wall and once built it's left alone. No patrols..no sensors..no manned posts..no drones, etc.
Posted on 11/15/16 at 3:19 pm to buckeye_vol
quote:
Then after we add the wall, let's assume there is only a 10% success rate; that would imply an effective strategy. Yet, since people can continue to try, then it is bound to be less effective than the 10% would indicate. So each successive attempt would decrease that probability, and since humans are adaptive and can learn, each successive attempt is likely to be more productive.
Double speak gobbledygook, but you're trying. I give you credit.
There's a good parody to this argument in a book I read regarding building the Empire State building. My lord the arguments against its feasibility, materials, labor cost, leases, et.al. Put their foot down and said build it. Hard times fell due to the timing of the build, but by the 50's its been 90% full.
Arguments are great, but build it, then solve problems of improvement as time passes. This is how an effective operation works. That of course assumes it isn't a folly in the 1st place, which I do not believe the wall to be.
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