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Started By
Message
re: Huffpo Insanity: Min wage should have reached $21.72 an hour
Posted on 3/7/14 at 1:02 am to stuntman
Posted on 3/7/14 at 1:02 am to stuntman
quote:
I used to manage 2 pest control companies and I have still have friends in the business that work at different competitors' companies.
And they forward you those company's books every quarter? That's nice of them.
quote:
I know what they charge customers and use for treatments. It's part of being in business.
And if you're company is so much better, shouldn't it be able to save up enough capital to move into Orlando? Those other guys did it somehow. It wasn't by whining about regulations either. Just think, rather than complaining about regulation on TD.com - you could be out trying to take some of your competitor's business so you can become a bigger company and move to a bigger market.
quote:
"The market" is nothing more than individuals making mutually beneficial decisions w/ each other.
No it isn't. That market is individuals making decisions that benefit themselves. This can be equivalent to "mutually beneficial" only in the case of a perfectly rational and perfectly efficient market - which cannot exist - so never.
quote:
Not crashing and dying in a fiery plane crash is a mutually beneficial decision.
Great. Now explain how that causes planes not to crash into each other. Do we just click our heels together and say "we don't wanna crash!"?
This post was edited on 3/7/14 at 1:05 am
1
Posted on 3/7/14 at 1:14 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
And they forward you those company's books every quarter? That's nice of them.
Have you ever been in management? OF COURSE they showed me what the costs were. I was aware of what the costs of running the business was EVERY DAY. That's a huge part of management.
quote:
And if you're company is so much better, shouldn't it be able to save up enough capital to move into Orlando? Those other guys did it somehow. It wasn't by whining about regulations either.
I was waiting for you to bring this up. Ok, in order for me to open a new location, I MUST hire another CPO (certified operator). That means hiring someone w/ my exact credentials and they must be hired full time. 1) Why can't I just hire someone of my choosing on a part time basis? I mean, if something happened at that location, I'm on the hook regardless. 2) That other CPO will more than likely turn into a future competitor. He/she would be very familiar w/ how my business runs and my customer lists.
quote:
No it isn't.
Yes, it is.
quote:
Now explain how that causes planes not to crash into each other.
Pilots communicate in the airspace. Are you not aware that pilots have the ability to communicate w/ other pilots while in the air?
Posted on 3/7/14 at 1:43 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:Proponents of higher taxes suggest this all of the time.
How can you suggest workers have no right to the fruit of the labor?
quote:
You are seriously telling us that its good if workers receive progressively smaller and smaller portions of the fruit of their labor as pay? What happens to the incentive to work then?
Posted on 3/7/14 at 5:49 am to SlowFlowPro
You fricking people are moronic beyond belief. So the cost of production should not be the burden of the producer? That is what ya'll are saying...you have it wrapped up in all sorts of neat, tidy bundles citing half correct facts and statstics BUT the fact of the matter is that a worker, no matter how unskilled, can not produce anything at all at current minimum wage levels because...and follow closely now...without a subsidy from the rest of the nation he would have no place to live, and he would have insufficient food.
Workers at a fast food restaurant are as skilled as a backhoe....they will work like hell as long as someone is pulling the right lever. If you lease a backhoe, which is what you are doing in essence with an employee, you have to keep that backhoe operational or it will not be worth a shite. Yet we don't expect this of employers with their employees...in fact we will help provide the diesel fuel and the shed to keep the employee sheltered from the elements....and then, in the ultimate irony, we are supposed to be concerned because the taxes that the employer pays, which help pay for that employees food and shelter, are too dammed high????
I understand ya'lls hatred of a handout...I get it. But it ain't the direct recipient you ought to focus that anger at....they are merely surviving and playing the game as it the rules are made...and paying for it dearly in the long run by becoming dependent and unable to support themselves. It is the producer class that ya'll should be pissed with...the share holders who are taking from the middle class in the form of wage subsidies so they can enjoy a vacation home and a huge bank account.
Workers at a fast food restaurant are as skilled as a backhoe....they will work like hell as long as someone is pulling the right lever. If you lease a backhoe, which is what you are doing in essence with an employee, you have to keep that backhoe operational or it will not be worth a shite. Yet we don't expect this of employers with their employees...in fact we will help provide the diesel fuel and the shed to keep the employee sheltered from the elements....and then, in the ultimate irony, we are supposed to be concerned because the taxes that the employer pays, which help pay for that employees food and shelter, are too dammed high????
I understand ya'lls hatred of a handout...I get it. But it ain't the direct recipient you ought to focus that anger at....they are merely surviving and playing the game as it the rules are made...and paying for it dearly in the long run by becoming dependent and unable to support themselves. It is the producer class that ya'll should be pissed with...the share holders who are taking from the middle class in the form of wage subsidies so they can enjoy a vacation home and a huge bank account.
Posted on 3/7/14 at 5:56 am to SettleDown
quote:
I was a grocery manager and my cashiers had a per-minute ring requirement(as did every store). They also were tested and had to score 90% or better at memorizing produce codes. Failure to maintain either resulted in being unemployed. I haven't been in a grocery store in at least 10 years where the cashiers would've even had a job in my store.
Is that because they're dumber? Nope. Doubt that. But, there has clearly been some shift in work ethic at that level and it hasn't been to the upside. The only reason grocery stores don't have to have every damned register open all the time is scanners. So, we're supposed to pay people more now than we did then just because the company invested in tech that saved the min worker's arse?
bullshite...it has nothing to do with work ethic....it probably has more to do with the fact that grocery stores can choose from much larger pool of job applicants if the lower the 90% bar to say 50%
or, maybe, even require that the cashier look up the code on a set of index cards with a fricking picture because who the frick can tell the difference between a white onion and a yellow onion at the breakneck speed that cashiers are checking out customers....and so they use the wrong code, charge the customer the wrong amount, and they are to blame....
Posted on 3/7/14 at 6:12 am to germandawg
quote:
BUT the fact of the matter is that a worker, no matter how unskilled, can not produce anything at all at current minimum wage levels because...and follow closely now...without a subsidy from the rest of the nation he would have no place to live, and he would have insufficient food.
Meh - not in Manhattan - but, heck, I'd starve in Manhattan.
The false premise is that there should be a minimum wage at all. There shouldn't be.
Second false premise is that there are so many people working at minimum wage: There aren't. And those that are include trainees, teenagers, people at the bottom rung of the bottom rung work.
The additional problem is that the redistributionists refuse to recognize that - beyond a certain point, employers just won't hire people - it is already happening with all of the other things, other than wages, that go into a compensation package - now featuring Obamacare(tm). So, once the magic number (and that varies, but it is the point where the boss man says - "Okay, those 5 out there have to get it done - I cannot afford to hire a 6th") - and *poof* there is a job gone.
I won't pay for a $275,000 machine to replace a worker who makes $7.50 to $9.00, but I might for one that makes $15 to $22 an hour. The greater you drive up the cost of unskilled labor - the less unskilled labor positions there will be, period.
This post was edited on 3/7/14 at 6:57 am
Posted on 3/7/14 at 6:14 am to germandawg
quote:Speaking of fricking moronic if he is working for minimum wage he is already brain dead.
can not produce anything at all at current minimum wage levels because...and follow closely now...without a subsidy from the rest of the nation he would have no place to live, and he would have insufficient food.
Posted on 3/7/14 at 7:18 am to germandawg
quote:
bullshite...it has nothing to do with work ethic...
If it ain't work ethic then it sure as shite is drive and determination. If you can't do better than a min wage job after working one for a year and building new skills than you aren't trying.
quote:
because who the frick can tell the difference between a white onion and a yellow onion at the breakneck speed that cashiers are checking out customers....
I can tell the difference. Also not sure about your neighborhood but my Kroger cashier isn't working at breakneck speeds.
quote:
and so they use the wrong code, charge the customer the wrong amount, and they are to blame
Damn right they are - shite the mistakes these guys make are mind boggling. Difference between an American red pepper which is skinnier than a holland bell pepper is like $2 a lb. the other mistake that happens all the time is mistaking a jalepeno for a Serrano but I digress.
If its your job and you do it all day every day I expect you to know these things.
I used to be a cashier 20 years ago when you had to memorize that shite it's not hard.
Posted on 3/7/14 at 8:55 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Maybe you can describe the mechanism by which the "market" would direct air traffic. I gotta fricking hear this one.
The same way power companies reliably generate and deliver electricity in real time without needing a small army of government employees to function as operators.
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:10 am to constant cough
quote:Yes, some, but not all. I said it would be reduced, not eliminated, and I think it will be greatly reduced.
Whatever tech surge there is it is nowhere even close to replacing human labor. Some jobs will always require people.
quote:Issues like switching fast food joints to automation and reducing a staff of 20 to a staff of 5 do not, IMO, get passed on to the jobs that manufacture the automation (if that's what you're getting at), especially given the sharply different skill levels of the two sectors.
Issues that come from the human element are part of the cost. So they are really one in the same.
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:12 am to ironsides
quote:
If it ain't work ethic then it sure as shite is drive and determination. If you can't do better than a min wage job after working one for a year and building new skills than you aren't trying.
alternative explanation is your are a retard or have literally no skills whatsoever (high school dropout or something)
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:16 am to germandawg
quote:
because who the frick can tell the difference between a white onion and a yellow onion at the breakneck speed that cashiers are checking out customers
talk about setting the bar low
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:22 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Deserves" is subjective and irrelevant. You should look into it yourself if you're into subjectivity.
Wages/value are subjective
quote:
if productivity goes up while wages stagnate - the wage earners get less and less of a share of the total economy for the same share of labor.
And if society progresses as a result, then it's bad?
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:29 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
if productivity goes up while wages stagnate
increases in productivity isnt always the result of labor. in fact, in todays environment its rarely the result of labor. instead, its the result of technology - and those who create and adapt said technology are rightly reaping those benefits.
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:29 am to germandawg
quote:
BUT the fact of the matter is that a worker, no matter how unskilled, can not produce anything at all at current minimum wage levels because...and follow closely now...without a subsidy from the rest of the nation he would have no place to live, and he would have insufficient food.
Explain immigration, especially illegal immigrants who work for less than min wage
And I believe in emigration
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:30 am to 90proofprofessional
quote:
for a short time, before moving up themselves. low wages are a great motivation to do that
When I was in school I got tired of flipping Quarter Pounder patties very quickly FWIW. And collecting shopping carts at the Real Superstore during a hot summer only encouraged my belief that I needed better work.
For some reason applying for benefits didn't occur to me.
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:30 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
And if society progresses as a result, then it's bad?
what is progresses?
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:30 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:If I own a business, I should be able to pay employees whatever the hell I want.
So "progress" means that as the value of labor increases, the employer pockets that difference for himself and the employee gets squat from it.
For example... take you for instance - a mentally handicapped person.
If I had to pay a $21.72 minimum wage, I would never hire a mentally handicapped individual. But if I could pay anything I wanted, I may offer you a job for $1 an hour to basically not do much of anything, because that's what your labor is worth.
If you don't like it, you can go across the street and try to get more money from somebody else.
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:32 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Explain immigration, especially illegal immigrants who work for less than min wage
good one
eta: really blows up the Powerman argument of illegals are a net positive. either his argument or dawgs argument is completely blown to hell.
This post was edited on 3/7/14 at 9:35 am
Posted on 3/7/14 at 9:34 am to jcole4lsu
quote:
increases in productivity isnt always the result of labor. in fact, in todays environment its rarely the result of labor.
i'd say it's very rare, especially if we're talking about bottom-level hourly workers. it's hard to believe they're working harder or faster per hour than they were a generation ago, when their incentives (and typical level of human capital) haven't really changed.
quote:
its the result of technology - and those who create and adapt said technology are rightly reaping those benefits
exactly. special emphasis belongs on the "create" part, and i'd add that investment is necessary for that step of creating.
This post was edited on 3/7/14 at 9:36 am
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