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re: Historical monuments okay or not
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:01 pm to 9th life
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:01 pm to 9th life
quote:
I assumed that called into question their historical value.
Who determines historical value? It's all subjective. That's the point. One man's hero is another man's villain. You can name any historical figure and I can tell you why they're a bad person and shouldn't be idolized. Basing historical figures on today's standards is asinine. And when you use a crutch as "slavery and racist" as your reasoning (not you in particular) it opens a huge can of worms because damn near every. Single. Historical figure from the 19th century back was racist and supported slavery.
That is the crutch the anti monument movement is using. Slavery and racism. It's completely asinine. We have so many real and tangible problems in today's world, yet what's the outrage over? fricking statues of long dead men.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
1
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:02 pm to beerJeep
quote:
We have so many real and tangible problems in today's world, yet what's the outrage over? fricking statues of long dead men.
Should be no thang to take 'em down, then.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:04 pm to dbeck
quote:
You seem rustled.
Well, when I see the primary focus of a large group of people is an inanimate object which holds zero impact on their life, when they have real, tangible, actual problems in the CURRENT WORLD, to deal with, I'm just in awe at how stupid one must be.
Why not focus all of that energy into dealing with real life problems? Not some perceived slight from an inanimate object?
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:05 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
Should be no thang to take 'em down, then.
Then let's take down every statue of any historical figure from over 100 years ago. Every last one. Mount Rushmore? Blow that bitch up right?
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:07 pm to beerJeep
quote:
So... How do you feel about honoring and immortalizing Julius Caesar? Alexander the Great? Ghengis khan? Nero? Several of the British kings?
i have never seen one of these in the united states, outside of museums of course.
this part of the question is really fricking stupid.
eta: I really could not care less about the statues. But I think if they have a major accomplishment outside of waging an insurrection, then by all means have a statue.
This post was edited on 8/15/17 at 1:08 pm
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:08 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
Should be no thang to take 'em down, then.
By this point, I think it's clear that it is a bitch and a half to take them down.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:08 pm to beerJeep
quote:
So did the native Americans. Are you saying native Americans are horrible and don't deserve statues in their honor?
I grew up in South Carolina and don't recall seeing any statues that honored Native Americans who killed people. Is this common where you're from?
quote:
The north didn't fight to end slavery. It fought to keep the south. They only pivioted to ending slavery to cripple the south economically during the war. Lincoln was a horrible racist and didn't care about the plight of the average slave unless it was advantageous to him. In fact, he wanted to ship em back down south.
Irrelevant. The direct result of the war was the elimination of slavery. People's personal feelings or political calculations don't change that. Further, none of this changes that Lee could've sided with the U.S. and fought against the people who declared that slavery was their chosen economic system. And even if I accepted your assertion that the U.S.'s and Lincoln's motives are somehow tarnished because they were less than pure, it still means Lee fought for the dissolution of the United States.
I mean imagine not just deciding to be a traitor, but doing so to preserve slavery. Jesus Christ what a frick up by Lee.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:10 pm to beerJeep
quote:
let's take down every statue of any historical figure from over 100 years ago. Every last one.
I don't think the historical figures would care either way.
They're dead, don't you see?
quote:
Mount Rushmore? Blow that bitch up right?
I mean if you want to go to South Dakota and blow some shite up, be my guest
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:11 pm to WheelRoute
quote:
imagine not just deciding to be a traitor, but doing so to preserve slavery. Jesus Christ what a frick up by Lee.
He chose......poorly.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:17 pm to TbirdSpur2010
quote:
don't think the historical figures would care either way. They're dead, don't you see?
So let's tear them all down. Let's be hypocrites or let's be true to our word and take down every statue of racist and slave owners.
quote:
mean if you want to go to South Dakota and blow some shite up, be my guest
Blowing shite up is a whole lot of fun
you ever shoot a mini propane bottle with 5.56? The fireball is pretty cool. 
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:21 pm to WheelRoute
quote:
grew up in South Carolina and don't recall seeing any statues that honored Native Americans who killed people. Is this common where you're from?
Uhhhhhh.... There are monuments across the states....
quote:
mean imagine not just deciding to be a traitor, but doing so to preserve slavery. Jesus Christ what a frick up by Lee
Slavery was completely normal then. You're letting your current world opinion on slavery cloud your judgement.
What does taking the statues down do to better the African American community?
Is it just a feel good sentiment? If so, why not take down all slave owners statues?
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:34 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Slavery was completely normal then. You're letting your current world opinion on slavery cloud your judgement.
quote:
Slavery was completely normal then. You're letting your current world opinion on slavery cloud your judgement.
Well this simply isn't correct at all. Slavery wasn't "normal" in the U.S. and had reached a tipping point by the time of the war.
quote:
What does taking the statues down do to better the African American community?
You got it backwards. It's helping the white community.
quote:
Is it just a feel good sentiment? If so, why not take down all slave owners statues?
As I've already said: we judge people and their actions based on context. It's perfectly reasonable for the state to memorialize someone for their extraordinary deeds and then in books and museums make a record of their life that presents a fuller picture. A statue of Thomas Jefferson is not an endorsement of slavery any more than a statue of Ali is and endorsement of Islam. South Carolina has a statue of George Rogers outside our stadium, do you think we're celebrating his time with the Gamecocks and his Heisman trophy or do you think we're celebrating his arrest for the purchase of crack cocaine? Do you believe it's possible to separate the two?
Posted on 8/15/17 at 1:44 pm to WheelRoute
quote:
Well this simply isn't correct at all. Slavery wasn't "normal" in the U.S. and had reached a tipping point by the time of the war.
Why put a limit on where it was normal?on a macro scale, It was normal world wide at the time and practiced in plenty of areas. On a micro scale, if was common in the south as it was still the primary source of agriculture. The industrialization of agricultural would have ended slavery with or without the Civil War.
quote:
You got it backwards. It's helping the white community.
Elaborate please.
quote:
Do you believe it's possible to separate the two?
Absolutely. Can the anti monument people separate the two? You can immortalize generals such as Robert e lee based on his character and his military accomplishments and not immortalize his tacit support of the institution of slavery. After all, in every first hand account I've read on both the union and confederate side, Lee was respected and thought highly of. Post war memoirs as well as pre war memoirs state as such.
If the men who fought general lee can separate the two, why can't we? Tearing down statues of men you don't agree with based on today's moral standards is wrong.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 2:26 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Absolutely. Can the anti monument people separate the two? You can immortalize generals such as Robert e lee based on his character and his military accomplishments and not immortalize his tacit support of the institution of slavery. After all, in every first hand account I've read on both the union and confederate side, Lee was respected and thought highly of. Post war memoirs as well as pre war memoirs state as such.
Lee used his military mind to commit treason. And the statues of him are memorializing that treason by showing him in confederate regalia. Some sins loom larger than any achievement. Treason is one.
quote:
Tearing down statues of men you don't agree with based on today's moral standards is wrong.
Treason is not "today's moral standard." It has always been a grave sin.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 2:29 pm to WheelRoute
quote:At the time of the civil war, it was still a debate whether or not secession was treason. It was hardly a settled legal debate.
Lee used his military mind to commit treason.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 2:40 pm to WheelRoute
quote:
Treason is not "today's moral standard." It has always been a grave sin.
Remind me. What's the penalty for treason? Death correct? Not hey, be the head of this college. Oh, and you still get all your rights back.
If the men who fought him can look past his transgressions, why can't we?
Posted on 8/15/17 at 2:41 pm to beerJeep
quote:
and none will answer...
I answered you twice. Just because you don't like the answer, or don't understand it, doesn't mean it wasn't answered.
Posted on 8/15/17 at 2:42 pm to BamaAtl
No, you pulled literal shite out of your arse. Have you read any first hand memoirs yet?
Posted on 8/15/17 at 2:45 pm to beerJeep
quote:
You can immortalize generals such as Robert e lee based on his character and his military accomplishments
Character: He was a traitor who participated in a slaveholders' rebellion against his country.
Military accomplishments: He lost his rebellion.
Uhhhhhh.....
Posted on 8/15/17 at 2:46 pm to beerJeep
quote:
Have you read any first hand memoirs yet?
Sure, they all say that Lee was despised and his contemporaries wanted to shame him, so they created Arlington National Cemetery.
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