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Message
re: Dennis Prager on why poverty does NOT cause crime
Posted on 11/18/14 at 3:31 pm to Big Scrub TX
Posted on 11/18/14 at 3:31 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
As I've said on here before, it has to go like this if it's going to work:
American society must admit to and actually acknowledge its history of race terrorism. Honestly. That means when someone says "Jim Crow", you don't get a kneejerk "yeah, but Irish need not apply" in response. It means simply admitting the plain facts that blacks were terrorized, brutalized, ghettoized and impeded socially and economically for many many decades.
Next, American society must admit that the literal centuries of this sort of treatment brings with it - BY DEFINITION - lasting social impact which manifests itself decades later. This means acknowledging such things as the multi-generational wealth gap which was intentionally created and from which modern blacks now suffer from.
Good God man, I don't even know how to respond to this. Firstly, who is "American society"? What do you define that as? Do you want to hear it from the POTUS? See it in textbooks? See it on billboards? Have planes with banners flying around proclaiming it?
At what point would you be satisfied?
1
Posted on 11/18/14 at 3:33 pm to L.A.
quote:
Which leads me to wonder about people who believe that “poverty causes crime.”
What causes crime from low income areas?
Lack of fatherhood.
Young people are influenced by their surroundings
Posted on 11/18/14 at 3:36 pm to rintintin
quote:
Good God man, I don't even know how to respond to this. Firstly, who is "American society"? What do you define that as? Do you want to hear it from the POTUS? See it in textbooks? See it on billboards? Have planes with banners flying around proclaiming it? At what point would you be satisfied?
I'd be satisfied if Congress passed a resolution or whatever stating as such.
And of course it should be in textbooks.
Posted on 11/18/14 at 4:02 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
However, I shut down when I see people actively waiting for the state to kill rioters.
Well - I didn't think that's what this thread was about - I'm concedeing that poverty is a risk factor for criminal activity - obviously it is not a causal relationship - there are poor non-criminals and rich criminals.
The recipe for avoiding poverty is very simple:
1. Stay in school
2. Don't have children out of wedlock
3. Refrain from engaging in criminal activity
4. Work at some kind of job
The population that does this has a 95 to 98% chance of avoiding poverty, whether it be a black kid living off Normandie in South Central L.A. or a white kid from a trailer park in Morgantown, WV, and everyone in between, North, South, East or West.
Being in poverty, generation after generation - yes there are legitimate grievances for past injustices for some populations, not the least of which include black folks - but enemy #1 is the man(woman) in the mirror.
Not liking that doesn't make it false.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 4:04 pm
Posted on 11/18/14 at 4:07 pm to L.A.
quote:I assure you I did not miss his point. "My parents came from nothing." "Look at all the cheap electronics the poor have." "The real fix for inequality is social conservatism." Etc.
You completely missed his point. Completely, 100% missed it. Go back and re-read it.
I really don't get the appeal of Prager. The next thing I read, hear, or watch of his that contains an ounce of creativity and not a collection of microwaved bromides that everyone, on both sides of any debate, has heard roughly ten trillion times will be the first. I don't agree with Rush, or like Rush, but I get Rush. I get the appeal. Prager is the political equivalent of Quaker Oats.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 4:09 pm
Posted on 11/18/14 at 4:58 pm to Iosh
quote:
Prager is the political equivalent of Quaker Oats.
He fills a niche like Applebees fills a niche. Some people like bland.
This post was edited on 11/18/14 at 5:00 pm
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:06 pm to Iosh
quote:
I assure you I did not miss his point. "My parents came from nothing." "Look at all the cheap electronics the poor have." "The real fix for inequality is social conservatism." Etc.
I really don't get the appeal of Prager. The next thing I read, hear, or watch of his that contains an ounce of creativity and not a collection of microwaved bromides that everyone, on both sides of any debate, has heard roughly ten trillion times will be the first.
quote:Care to distill your own posts past that?
The next thing I read, hear, or watch of his that contains an ounce of creativity and not a collection of microwaved bromides
Microwaved bromides?
Microwaved bromides might be the stuff of decent poetry, but not of solid argument here.
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:33 pm to Ace Midnight
quote:
The recipe for avoiding poverty is very simple: 1. Stay in school 2. Don't have children out of wedlock 3. Refrain from engaging in criminal activity 4. Work at some kind of job
Right. But again, you are starting from a different place than a lot of these kids are. If no member of your family ever owned a home or attended college or had a bank account or even showed you how to have a bank account and if you lived in perpetual fear of the "system"...you don't just carry out these simple instructions.
I know it's hard to conceive of (it's really hard for me, as I used to be the type to give the same speech you are giving now.)
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:42 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
I'd be satisfied if Congress passed a resolution or whatever stating as such.
Not sure what that would accomplish, but fine, let's say they did that. What next?
quote:
And of course it should be in textbooks.
What exactly would you like these textbooks to say on top of teaching about slavery, Civil rights, etc, which they already do?
I assure you there are classes that teach about the struggles the black community has had to endure.
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:55 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
quote:
The recipe for avoiding poverty is very simple: 1. Stay in school 2. Don't have children out of wedlock 3. Refrain from engaging in criminal activity 4. Work at some kind of job
Right. But again, you are starting from a different place than a lot of these kids are. If no member of your family ever owned a home or attended college or had a bank account or even showed you how to have a bank account and if you lived in perpetual fear of the "system"...you don't just carry out these simple instructions.
I know it's hard to conceive of (it's really hard for me, as I used to be the type to give the same speech you are giving now.)
i've taught about 100 kids from africa ... they actually know what 'poor' means ... getting all of your food the first day of the month ... one shirt ... no modern comforts of western civilization - tv, ac, cell phones, etc ... they didn't own a home, have a bank account, or parents who attended college ... many of them, probably a majority, went on to attend college ... none of them ... and i mean literally, none of them, were ever a discipline problem in class ... i'm sure you have an explanation which excuses black americans, however ...
Posted on 11/18/14 at 5:56 pm to tiderider
quote:
i've taught about 100 kids from africa ... they actually know what 'poor' means ... getting all of your food the first day of the month ... one shirt ... no modern comforts of western civilization - tv, ac, cell phones, etc ... they didn't own a home, have a bank account, or parents who attended college ... many of them, probably a majority, went on to attend college ... none of them ... and i mean literally, none of them, were ever a discipline problem in class ...
Posted on 11/18/14 at 6:00 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
The part that is blaringly omitted is that Prager's family was white.
always excuses, always excuses
black, poor, no opportunities...blah, blah, blah
people commit crime because they are bad, lazy, scum. I don't care if they're white, black, asian, or whatever. Plenty of white collar crime, so that blows the poverty/opportunity excuse out the window.
what it's really about is jealousy and greed of some people who want 'stuff', but aren't willing to do the things necessary to get it. yes, I had it easier than some poor black kid, but PLENTY of poor black and white kids did what was necessary to climb out of poverty without crime.
I can't believe people are still spouting this dribble
Posted on 11/18/14 at 6:08 pm to PrimeTime Money
So home life has nothing to do with poverty....people choose to be poor when they are 4 or 5 years old and their parents are too fricked up to see to it that they get to school. So I guess it doesn't matter that daddy ain't at home because on their 18 th birthday their upbringing is no longer an issue.
So do y'all not grant your family for teaching you how to be a productive member of society? If it ain't the families blame that a person grows up poor then it ain't their fault if she doesn't....
So do y'all not grant your family for teaching you how to be a productive member of society? If it ain't the families blame that a person grows up poor then it ain't their fault if she doesn't....
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:04 pm to rintintin
quote:
What exactly would you like these textbooks to say on top of teaching about slavery, Civil rights, etc, which they already do
I'd like there to be a very close examination of the facts and outcomes of Jim Crow. I'd like redlining to be taught. Exclusion from Social Security. Massive and myriad white riots over honest black folk moving in to certain areas. Exclusion from the suburban dream. Exclusion from higher education. etc. etc. etc.
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:07 pm to Ole War Skule
quote:
always excuses, always excuses
Excuse? It's just a fact. Prager's family was white and thus, despite being poor, really had no idea what blacks were facing during the same time period. Prager (and almost everyone) seems intent on dropping that context when regaling us with his Horatio Alger stories.
quote:
can't believe people are still spouting this dribble
I can't believe people are still saying "dribble" instead of "drivel".
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:13 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
I can't believe people are still saying "dribble" instead of "drivel".
is that the best you got?
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:17 pm to Ole War Skule
quote:
is that the best you got?
Um, it was merely a tagline addressing your throwaway tagline from your post. I directly addressed the substance of what Prager said above that.
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:36 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
Excuse? It's just a fact. Prager's family was white and thus, despite being poor, really had no idea what blacks were facing during the same time period. Prager (and almost everyone) seems intent on dropping that context when regaling us with his Horatio Alger stories.
but it is your excuse none the less, isn't it.
spend as much time advising young black kids to stay in school, stop make babies, and not become criminals as you do making excuses for them and you could do a world of good...all you're doing here is justifying bigots' views and criminals' behavior.
Posted on 11/18/14 at 7:39 pm to tiderider
quote:What you don't understand is that something, during some point in time caused a culture shift and changed the attitudes of many black Americans.
i've taught about 100 kids from africa ... they actually know what 'poor' means ... getting all of your food the first day of the month ... one shirt ... no modern comforts of western civilization - tv, ac, cell phones, etc ... they didn't own a home, have a bank account, or parents who attended college ... many of them, probably a majority, went on to attend college ... none of them ... and i mean literally, none of them, were ever a discipline problem in class ... i'm sure you have an explanation which excuses black americans, however ...
They became stuck in a perpetual cycle that they cannot break from because they do what their parent(s) do who did what their parent(s) do, etc. It's a cycle of bad culture, poverty, and crime.
They didn't just decide one day to live like that. Something caused the world-view that led to them living like that.
Poor Africans in Africa had completely different experiences from poor blacks in Africa. And poverty is all relative.
Posted on 11/18/14 at 8:24 pm to Big Scrub TX
quote:
I'd like there to be a very close examination of the facts and outcomes of Jim Crow. I'd like redlining to be taught. Exclusion from Social Security. Massive and myriad white riots over honest black folk moving in to certain areas. Exclusion from the suburban dream. Exclusion from higher education. etc. etc. etc.
Alot of that information is readily available.
It just seems that you are so spiteful, or guilt filled, or I don't know what, that you don't care for the actual solutions to these problems, you just want it to be screamed from the rooftops to remind everybody. You are more concerned with marketing the plight, than fixing the product.
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